5 ms·

Here in Liesing, Austria, I walked past a stolperstein this morning, which sits at the entrance to a local Billa (supermarket), which is a new construction on a

Here in Liesing, Austria, I walked past a stolperstein this morning, which sits at the entrance to a local Billa (supermarket), which is a new construction on a site where I suppose the victim of Nazi aggression lived before being taken to a concentration camp to perish. Although I see these stones all over Vienna, and find myself in contemplation every single time I see them elsewhere around Europe, it is even more jarring to see them in a seemingly random outer suburb/town of the region at the footstep of a local grocery store, and is a severely jarring reminder of the atrocities that occurred in this land, not so long ago. I wish Australia, my native land, would have the courage to do something similar to highlight the atrocities we committed there, on the original peoples. Alas, Australian war hubris is too heavy to pierce that veil ..

smcl 4y ago
I have the same thing over the border in Brno, Czech Republic. Didn't really notice them for so long, until suddenly I stopped to read one and realised they're all over the place. I always stop to check them now. Additionally I have similar feelings about the atrocities committed by the UK. To me it feels so unambiguously right to officially acknowledge and apologise that our ancestors did pretty heinous shit (up to and including invading countries this century).
- noneeeed 4y ago
  Likewise. I get very frustrated by all the people who will refuse to acknowledge that our ancestors did some atrocious things to people. People will just through some extrodinary hoops to rationalise why it either wasn't so terrible, or it was somehow justified in a way that other people's atrocities were not.
  - boffinAudio 4y ago
    As an Australian, visiting Mauthausen - or indeed any of the preserved concentration camps of the past - was particularly humbling. It really highlighted to me that a society that gets honest with itself, improves - and those who don't, just continue to commit the same atrocities. We Australians don't have the courage that Austrians do, when it comes to acknowledging the criminal actions of our past society. Alas, the struggle for acknowledgement is real. A lot of it has to do with the fact that Australias concentration camps and genocide programs were performed in seriously remote locations, far far away from any civil population - so its a lot easier to hide. The camp at Mauthausen can be seen from the local countryside and is clearly maintained to be a visible reminder of extremist totalitarian/authoritarianism to the children who visit it, regularly, as part of their education. That courage is something for which the Austrian people should be proud.
  - smcl 4y ago
    Sorry if it's not clear, I'm a UK national. And while it's true that we shouldn't really distinguish between atrocities (after all, they're all bad), I think being from the UK you're always going to feel a bit more connected to or somehow complicit in things that were done during the days of the British Empire even if you weren't yet born when they happened. Sort of a lingering, inherited shame. If that makes sense :)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- barrysteve 4y ago
  I don't know why you think it is unambiguosuly right to apologize for past crimes. My Finnish friend is super into history and he basically remembers the events of history by it's relative position in time to a European war. There were so many horrific wars. The stories of past highlight the worst parts of human nature, but many people got by in love without murdering the locals next door. We should turn away from evil and denouce it. The apology for it, suggests a naive belief one is separate from that human nature which drove the crimes. Maybe with more lead in air from leaded petrol, or more internet radicalization, or an end to our local agriculture, we might be the 1% that turns toward evil. Examining past crimes can lead to more crime, as we have seen with internet radicals lately and copycat people following news media stories. Studying that sh*t and mulling it over in apology for crimes one never did is dangerous, we should move towards loving the good things done, past and future.
  - smcl 4y ago
    I think there's very clearly a point beyond which any reasonable person agrees that what's done is done and it doesn't make sense to make apologies anymore. Like today in 2022 nobody but the most peculiar weirdo in Scotland holds a grudge against people with the surname "Campbell" because of the Glencoe Massacre[0] after more than 300 years (though they do exist!). But for something like the Mau Mau massacre, for the Iraq War, for the Afghanistan War or for any number of atrocities in British India or anything like that - these were huge events whose effects can still be felt today. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect some sort of official apology from the state. Or failing that - simply allowing a level of acknowledgement in our History curriculum that says "The British Empire was not good, and was in fact quite often bad for a very long period of time" might help. Because right now doing so is walking on very thin ice[1] and there are a lot of people walking around in the UK who think our imperial project was one which colonised and civilised, rather than brutalised it. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Glencoe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Glencoe [1] - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/guidance-on-promoting-british-values-in-schools-published https://www.gov.uk/government/news/guidance-on-promoting-bri...
    - barrysteve 4y ago
thematrixturtle 4y ago
What makes this possible in Europe is the Nazi mania for documentation. In Australia, as in the US, the killings happened over decades in a far more random/opportunistic way and records of how many died and where are extremely patchy, with few if any names recorded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenous_Australians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenou...
mensetmanusman 4y ago
I sometimes wonder how difficult it is to strike the right balance. When I was in US high school, so much time was spent focusing on the atrocities of the US that many of my peers left with the impression that the US is a horrible country not worth fighting for. Interestingly, activating that feeling of nihilism is the goal of Russian propaganda in the US.
- boffinAudio 4y ago
  This really unfortunate state of affairs means that legitimate complaints against the USA can be brushed off as merely Russian agitprop, which simply enables further atrocities to be committed, unquestioned by the civilian populace who are the only ones with the real power to do anything about it. We must avoid the "blame Russia" response and be honest about our own states' vast and heinous crimes against humanity - lest, indeed, we become Russia.
- trasz 4y ago
  Well, US is probably the most aggressive country on this planet, but it's more than that: there's also its complete denial of any responsibility, from Hague Invasion Act to decorating people responsible for shooting down airliners and droning random kids.

smcl 4y ago

I have the same thing over the border in Brno, Czech Republic. Didn't really notice them for so long, until suddenly I stopped to read one and realised they're all over the place. I always stop to check them now. Additionally I have similar feelings about the atrocities committed by the UK. To me it feels so unambiguously right to officially acknowledge and apologise that our ancestors did pretty heinous shit (up to and including invading countries this century).

noneeeed 4y ago
Likewise. I get very frustrated by all the people who will refuse to acknowledge that our ancestors did some atrocious things to people. People will just through some extrodinary hoops to rationalise why it either wasn't so terrible, or it was somehow justified in a way that other people's atrocities were not.
- boffinAudio 4y ago
  As an Australian, visiting Mauthausen - or indeed any of the preserved concentration camps of the past - was particularly humbling. It really highlighted to me that a society that gets honest with itself, improves - and those who don't, just continue to commit the same atrocities. We Australians don't have the courage that Austrians do, when it comes to acknowledging the criminal actions of our past society. Alas, the struggle for acknowledgement is real. A lot of it has to do with the fact that Australias concentration camps and genocide programs were performed in seriously remote locations, far far away from any civil population - so its a lot easier to hide. The camp at Mauthausen can be seen from the local countryside and is clearly maintained to be a visible reminder of extremist totalitarian/authoritarianism to the children who visit it, regularly, as part of their education. That courage is something for which the Austrian people should be proud.
- smcl 4y ago
  Sorry if it's not clear, I'm a UK national. And while it's true that we shouldn't really distinguish between atrocities (after all, they're all bad), I think being from the UK you're always going to feel a bit more connected to or somehow complicit in things that were done during the days of the British Empire even if you weren't yet born when they happened. Sort of a lingering, inherited shame. If that makes sense :)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
barrysteve 4y ago
I don't know why you think it is unambiguosuly right to apologize for past crimes. My Finnish friend is super into history and he basically remembers the events of history by it's relative position in time to a European war. There were so many horrific wars. The stories of past highlight the worst parts of human nature, but many people got by in love without murdering the locals next door. We should turn away from evil and denouce it. The apology for it, suggests a naive belief one is separate from that human nature which drove the crimes. Maybe with more lead in air from leaded petrol, or more internet radicalization, or an end to our local agriculture, we might be the 1% that turns toward evil. Examining past crimes can lead to more crime, as we have seen with internet radicals lately and copycat people following news media stories. Studying that sh*t and mulling it over in apology for crimes one never did is dangerous, we should move towards loving the good things done, past and future.
- smcl 4y ago
  I think there's very clearly a point beyond which any reasonable person agrees that what's done is done and it doesn't make sense to make apologies anymore. Like today in 2022 nobody but the most peculiar weirdo in Scotland holds a grudge against people with the surname "Campbell" because of the Glencoe Massacre[0] after more than 300 years (though they do exist!). But for something like the Mau Mau massacre, for the Iraq War, for the Afghanistan War or for any number of atrocities in British India or anything like that - these were huge events whose effects can still be felt today. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect some sort of official apology from the state. Or failing that - simply allowing a level of acknowledgement in our History curriculum that says "The British Empire was not good, and was in fact quite often bad for a very long period of time" might help. Because right now doing so is walking on very thin ice[1] and there are a lot of people walking around in the UK who think our imperial project was one which colonised and civilised, rather than brutalised it. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Glencoe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Glencoe [1] - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/guidance-on-promoting-british-values-in-schools-published https://www.gov.uk/government/news/guidance-on-promoting-bri...
  - barrysteve 4y ago

thematrixturtle 4y ago

What makes this possible in Europe is the Nazi mania for documentation. In Australia, as in the US, the killings happened over decades in a far more random/opportunistic way and records of how many died and where are extremely patchy, with few if any names recorded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenous_Australians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenou...

mensetmanusman 4y ago

I sometimes wonder how difficult it is to strike the right balance. When I was in US high school, so much time was spent focusing on the atrocities of the US that many of my peers left with the impression that the US is a horrible country not worth fighting for. Interestingly, activating that feeling of nihilism is the goal of Russian propaganda in the US.

boffinAudio 4y ago
This really unfortunate state of affairs means that legitimate complaints against the USA can be brushed off as merely Russian agitprop, which simply enables further atrocities to be committed, unquestioned by the civilian populace who are the only ones with the real power to do anything about it. We must avoid the "blame Russia" response and be honest about our own states' vast and heinous crimes against humanity - lest, indeed, we become Russia.
trasz 4y ago
Well, US is probably the most aggressive country on this planet, but it's more than that: there's also its complete denial of any responsibility, from Hague Invasion Act to decorating people responsible for shooting down airliners and droning random kids.