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I recently came across the C4 model, I believe from a Hacker News comment responding to a request for architecture diagramming methods when I was performing a w

by bmitc 4y ago

I recently came across the C4 model, I believe from a Hacker News comment responding to a request for architecture diagramming methods when I was performing a web search for the same. The talk I watched was another one, but I pretty quickly became sold on it. I am trying to implement it for a system that I am new to. Really, the main struggle is tooling. So far, I am using PlantUML with a C4 model plugin. It's okay. I am thinking of switching to a visual diagramming tool, even though the author of the C4 model recommends against it, for some reason that I don't quite understand. It seems this talk, which I'll have to watch later, is own the author's own tooling called Structurizr. While nice, the pricing is a bit strange. The on premise version is $50 minimum per month and is twice the cloud version. I feel like it's going to be hard enough selling the C4 model, and I don't think the pricing model works for something that will have a lot of work in the beginning and then become relatively static for mature products. I'd like to see a one-time purchase perpetual license.

sequence7 4y ago
For a visual tool I'd recommend giving IcePanel [0] a try. For the diagrams as code solution, happily it looks like mermaid will soon support C4 [1] so their should be native support in lots of places soon (github, gitlab and lots more have built in support for mermaid) [0] https://icepanel.io/ https://icepanel.io/ [1] https://mermaid-js.github.io/mermaid/#/c4c https://mermaid-js.github.io/mermaid/#/c4c
Veuxdo 4y ago
> I am thinking of switching to a visual diagramming tool, even though the author of the C4 model recommends against it, for some reason that I don't quite understand. Not the speaker in the video, but the main reasons to not use drag-and-drop diagramming tools are summarized here: https://www.ilograph.com/blog/posts/its-time-to-drop-drag-and-drop-diagram-tools/ https://www.ilograph.com/blog/posts/its-time-to-drop-drag-an...
- TobbenTM 4y ago
  While I totally agree with the sentiment, it's hard to produce diagrams using code-to-diagram tools that convey as much meaning and story. I'd welcome anyone to challenge me on this, but the styling options you have for tools like PlantUML, Mermaid, and so on (excluding expensive online-only tools here) are just too limited. Yeah, you can argue that simple is better (I really loved https://www.simplediagrams.com/ https://www.simplediagrams.com/), but you still need _some_ ways to produce diagrams people will actually find pleasing. Diagrams to tell a story, with blocks that make sense in terms of looks, colors, and orientation. I want an open-source code-to-diagrams that can output as pretty diagrams as I make with LucidChart!
  - flarg 4y ago
    Totally agree. Plantuml Sparx etc just don't scale on the conceptuality axis. Draw.io and their ilk do.
bewuethr 4y ago
Isn't the main reason against visual tools the underlying DSL that describes the overall system and then defines multiple views (on the various "C" levels) against it, with the ability to generate diagrams in a view different diagramming tools? If you switch to a visual diagramming tool, you lose that ability. As for pricing, there's https://structurizr.com/help/lite https://structurizr.com/help/lite, which is free, no?

by bmitc 4y ago

sequence7 4y ago

For a visual tool I'd recommend giving IcePanel [0] a try. For the diagrams as code solution, happily it looks like mermaid will soon support C4 [1] so their should be native support in lots of places soon (github, gitlab and lots more have built in support for mermaid) [0] https://icepanel.io/ https://icepanel.io/ [1] https://mermaid-js.github.io/mermaid/#/c4c https://mermaid-js.github.io/mermaid/#/c4c

Veuxdo 4y ago

> I am thinking of switching to a visual diagramming tool, even though the author of the C4 model recommends against it, for some reason that I don't quite understand. Not the speaker in the video, but the main reasons to not use drag-and-drop diagramming tools are summarized here: https://www.ilograph.com/blog/posts/its-time-to-drop-drag-and-drop-diagram-tools/ https://www.ilograph.com/blog/posts/its-time-to-drop-drag-an...

TobbenTM 4y ago
While I totally agree with the sentiment, it's hard to produce diagrams using code-to-diagram tools that convey as much meaning and story. I'd welcome anyone to challenge me on this, but the styling options you have for tools like PlantUML, Mermaid, and so on (excluding expensive online-only tools here) are just too limited. Yeah, you can argue that simple is better (I really loved https://www.simplediagrams.com/ https://www.simplediagrams.com/), but you still need _some_ ways to produce diagrams people will actually find pleasing. Diagrams to tell a story, with blocks that make sense in terms of looks, colors, and orientation. I want an open-source code-to-diagrams that can output as pretty diagrams as I make with LucidChart!
- flarg 4y ago
  Totally agree. Plantuml Sparx etc just don't scale on the conceptuality axis. Draw.io and their ilk do.

bewuethr 4y ago

Isn't the main reason against visual tools the underlying DSL that describes the overall system and then defines multiple views (on the various "C" levels) against it, with the ability to generate diagrams in a view different diagramming tools? If you switch to a visual diagramming tool, you lose that ability. As for pricing, there's https://structurizr.com/help/lite https://structurizr.com/help/lite, which is free, no?