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Apparently putting down the stones in Poland is met with resistance. If poles want to commemorate killed poles with these stones they will have to take the init

by tokai 4y ago

Apparently putting down the stones in Poland is met with resistance. If poles want to commemorate killed poles with these stones they will have to take the initiative.

kybernetyk 4y ago
In Germany there has been a lot of resistance too. Including court cases etc.
- sdoering 4y ago
  But against the stones in general, not specifically against stones for Poles. I followed the discussion and also in other cities Stolpersteine for Poles have been initiated, albeit slowly.
  - gpjanik 4y ago
    Considering it's 2022, it clearly shows that the sentiment has been against it.
durnygbur 4y ago
It's their way of commemorating their victims and somehow in the process the second largest group slipped through. I don't want their way of commemorating their victims in my home Poland.
- kybernetyk 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - arlcode 4y ago
    That wasn't what I was (and still is) taught in school in Germany. The blame was always squarely put on Germany. It was always stressed that most of the German population had more than an inkling of what was going on and many agreed. The first time I heard the term "polish extermination camps" was a few years ago when the Polish Government outlawed it. So I'm really at a loss here.
  - brodo 4y ago
    Where did you get that idea? I'd say if you'd claim something like that in public in Germany, you can kiss your career goodbye.
  - Lichtverschwend 4y ago
    Which German government do you mean ? There were 2 at that time.
  - zaat 4y ago
    The German government had reiterate the German responsibility continuously, in words, diplomatic action and payments for the surviving victims. The Polish government however has decided lately on line of denying their share in the war crimes, effort that includes anti-historic legislation.
  - jebronie 4y ago
    Nobody in germany generally calls them "polish death camps" and nobody thinks poles are in any way to blame. Even if you called them polish deaths camps, people would assume you mean the Nazi concentration camps on occupied polish land.
  - fs111 4y ago
    This is absolute nonsense. We are all very much aware that it was us, the Germans, who did this.
  - flohofwoe 4y ago
    For such claims you really need to provide solid sources. I have never encountered this sort of "blame shifting" (schooled in East Germany in the 80's, but I also never heard that from the "other side"). The only sort of blame shifting related to Poland that I encountered in East German propaganda was that the Katyn massacre was blamed on Nazi Germany, not on the Soviet Union. Of course there are extremely far right organizations in Germany which to this day try to deflect the blame, but they are a minority and don't influence the public discourse (unless you live in their bubble of fake news and propaganda of course). But in general I don't see why nationality matters much in this case. When talking about persecuted Jews, communists, homosexuals (or any other group persecuted by the nazis) of course this also includes Polish Jews, communists and homosexuals.
- arlcode 4y ago
  As the GP said there are several stones commemorating polish victims in Berlin and other places. In this case the stones mark the places where the victims lived. I assume most Polish victims did not live in the territory of present day Germany. From personal experience I recall some with "eastern" names in a town that used to have a notable polish minority but I couldn't say for sure. Btw Can you recommend places to visit to learn more about their stories and history (besides the former sites of the concentration camps)?
- Nitramp 4y ago
  I think the only way we can move forward in Europe is to commemorate this past together, accept responsibility, and build a future where that cannot happen again. I think that has worked quite well so far (war between the European countries is unimaginable). Think about where we would be if we hadn't gone down this path. We can all help move things forward if we meet each other with an open mind, and steer clear of the resentment and national chauvinism of the past.
gpjanik 4y ago
The Poles I'm refering to were killed in Germany and the stones commemorating them exist. My comment is saying that the article is not mentioning them. There are stones like this in Poland commemorating Jews, e.g. former German city of Breslau, nowadays Wrocław. I believe the resistance came from the fact that Poles were not organizers of those killings/deportations and it was expected to be misunderstood by people unfamiliar with history (e.g. stone commemorating murdered Jews in a city that was formerly German but nowadays Polish, or Jews murdered in Poland by Germans). Important to mention: there were killings (not supported by the state) of Jews and systemic antisemitism (clearly supported by the state) in Poland conducted and organized by Polish people before and during the war (this was, though, not supported by the state at that time), but incomparable in scale.
- waffleiron 4y ago
  > My comment is saying that the article is not mentioning them. If you care about this, the "article" is wikipedia, and in the time you wrote this posts you could have added it already. edit: I was quick to comment, the article is protected. So unless you already have an active Wikipedia account, you'd have to request an edit on the talk page.
  - gpjanik 4y ago
    You're generally right, I can take on it and I will - but before I do it, I wanted to point out that as a consensus of work of many people, it ended up in mentioning petty criminals, but not tens of thousands of people who were expelled, prosecuted, killed, etc. because of their nationality. It's hard to tell if this is some anti-Polish resentiments of one or many of the authors, or just extremely low level of historical knowledge, but something tells me it's the first.

by tokai 4y ago

Apparently putting down the stones in Poland is met with resistance. If poles want to commemorate killed poles with these stones they will have to take the initiative.

kybernetyk 4y ago

In Germany there has been a lot of resistance too. Including court cases etc.

sdoering 4y ago
But against the stones in general, not specifically against stones for Poles. I followed the discussion and also in other cities Stolpersteine for Poles have been initiated, albeit slowly.
- gpjanik 4y ago
  Considering it's 2022, it clearly shows that the sentiment has been against it.

durnygbur 4y ago

It's their way of commemorating their victims and somehow in the process the second largest group slipped through. I don't want their way of commemorating their victims in my home Poland.

kybernetyk 4y ago
[flagged]
- arlcode 4y ago
  That wasn't what I was (and still is) taught in school in Germany. The blame was always squarely put on Germany. It was always stressed that most of the German population had more than an inkling of what was going on and many agreed. The first time I heard the term "polish extermination camps" was a few years ago when the Polish Government outlawed it. So I'm really at a loss here.
- brodo 4y ago
  Where did you get that idea? I'd say if you'd claim something like that in public in Germany, you can kiss your career goodbye.
- Lichtverschwend 4y ago
  Which German government do you mean ? There were 2 at that time.
- zaat 4y ago
  The German government had reiterate the German responsibility continuously, in words, diplomatic action and payments for the surviving victims. The Polish government however has decided lately on line of denying their share in the war crimes, effort that includes anti-historic legislation.
- jebronie 4y ago
  Nobody in germany generally calls them "polish death camps" and nobody thinks poles are in any way to blame. Even if you called them polish deaths camps, people would assume you mean the Nazi concentration camps on occupied polish land.
- fs111 4y ago
  This is absolute nonsense. We are all very much aware that it was us, the Germans, who did this.
- flohofwoe 4y ago
  For such claims you really need to provide solid sources. I have never encountered this sort of "blame shifting" (schooled in East Germany in the 80's, but I also never heard that from the "other side"). The only sort of blame shifting related to Poland that I encountered in East German propaganda was that the Katyn massacre was blamed on Nazi Germany, not on the Soviet Union. Of course there are extremely far right organizations in Germany which to this day try to deflect the blame, but they are a minority and don't influence the public discourse (unless you live in their bubble of fake news and propaganda of course). But in general I don't see why nationality matters much in this case. When talking about persecuted Jews, communists, homosexuals (or any other group persecuted by the nazis) of course this also includes Polish Jews, communists and homosexuals.
arlcode 4y ago
As the GP said there are several stones commemorating polish victims in Berlin and other places. In this case the stones mark the places where the victims lived. I assume most Polish victims did not live in the territory of present day Germany. From personal experience I recall some with "eastern" names in a town that used to have a notable polish minority but I couldn't say for sure. Btw Can you recommend places to visit to learn more about their stories and history (besides the former sites of the concentration camps)?
Nitramp 4y ago
I think the only way we can move forward in Europe is to commemorate this past together, accept responsibility, and build a future where that cannot happen again. I think that has worked quite well so far (war between the European countries is unimaginable). Think about where we would be if we hadn't gone down this path. We can all help move things forward if we meet each other with an open mind, and steer clear of the resentment and national chauvinism of the past.

gpjanik 4y ago

The Poles I'm refering to were killed in Germany and the stones commemorating them exist. My comment is saying that the article is not mentioning them. There are stones like this in Poland commemorating Jews, e.g. former German city of Breslau, nowadays Wrocław. I believe the resistance came from the fact that Poles were not organizers of those killings/deportations and it was expected to be misunderstood by people unfamiliar with history (e.g. stone commemorating murdered Jews in a city that was formerly German but nowadays Polish, or Jews murdered in Poland by Germans). Important to mention: there were killings (not supported by the state) of Jews and systemic antisemitism (clearly supported by the state) in Poland conducted and organized by Polish people before and during the war (this was, though, not supported by the state at that time), but incomparable in scale.

waffleiron 4y ago
> My comment is saying that the article is not mentioning them. If you care about this, the "article" is wikipedia, and in the time you wrote this posts you could have added it already. edit: I was quick to comment, the article is protected. So unless you already have an active Wikipedia account, you'd have to request an edit on the talk page.
- gpjanik 4y ago
  You're generally right, I can take on it and I will - but before I do it, I wanted to point out that as a consensus of work of many people, it ended up in mentioning petty criminals, but not tens of thousands of people who were expelled, prosecuted, killed, etc. because of their nationality. It's hard to tell if this is some anti-Polish resentiments of one or many of the authors, or just extremely low level of historical knowledge, but something tells me it's the first.