5 ms·

It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then.

It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then. The stories on them, told in a brief phrase, are mostly heartbreaking, sometimes uplifting, always relevant. "Executed for making fun of the Führer", "Deported and gassed for hiding Jewish neighbors", "Survived concentration camp but parents, siblings and relatives did not make it out alive".

lyian 4y ago
Yeah, in my city I also stumble across these stones. One day, on my way of getting groceries, I was quite frankly shocked by the frequency of the stolpersteine. I am thankful that these exists and getting reminded now and then is, at least for me, really important and outline in some kind of tiny fraction, how many families suffered the same fate.
hnhg 4y ago
I've seen some that just name a family or couple that were taken away one night and "murdered", which hit me the hardest, personally.
Klaster_1 4y ago
The idea to put a bit more info about the person was brilliant, even a single sentence makes you relate more. There is a similar project in Russia called The Last Address [1], I see these a lot (but probably not enough) in the Saint-Petersburg historical center, and although being a similar age and area of expertise to lots of victims helps, even a brief summary of their "wrongdoings" would go a long way enriching the perspective on our history, especially given current political climate here. "A 30 years old engineer lived here" doesn't ring as close as "a 30 years old engineer who lived here was murdered by the state for a crime of opposing the oppressive regime". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Address https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Address
- tpoacher 4y ago
  I always thought that a firstperson shooter game where whenever you killed a mook you'd get a quick flashback of that person's life would have been a super interesting concept. Especially if it was a Call of Duty like game, rather than a game where you could choose to avoid killing.
  - Klaster_1 4y ago
    Sniper Elite 5 has something like that: every enemy has a short biography visible when you aim at them. Didn't play the game, but like the gesture - people are people no matter what side you are on, doesn't matter who you dehumanize, it's wrong either way.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    This happens in Divinity 2 as an elf. If you eat the body of someone you flash back into their life.
  - heartbeats 4y ago
    https://xkcd.com/873/ https://xkcd.com/873/
- spython 4y ago
  I think with many victims we just don't know what exactly happened – some were opposing the regime, some told a political joke, some were falsely accused by their co-workers in order to get promoted to their position, some were falsely accused by their (innocent) friends who were tortured by NKVD, some had a wrong biography, and others had a wrong name. They all got Article 58.
  - winReInstall 4y ago
    A woman in my town was send into the "lighter" political version of the KZ, because she remarked upon recieving the "medal of motherhood" with a cynic "and were shall i pin that, to my bottom?" Totalitarian nightmares have no humor. If you think, your favourite thing in life shoul dbe spared jokes and jests, you are heading right towards that spot. Nothing should be sacrosanct to jokes. I raise my glass to those who walked into the fence, taking theire workforce awaz from the fuehrer and his germinions.
- refurb 4y ago
  The film Shoah always struck me for similar reasons https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoah_(film) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoah_(film) They did many of these interviews in the 70’s so a little more than 30 years after the Holocaust. Seeing them interview some farmer who was 20 at the time and lived near the village of Auschwitz and remembers seeing the trains going in full of people and coming out empty really hits home as it all happened in the midst of people just living their lives.
boffinAudio 4y ago
Here in Liesing, Austria, I walked past a stolperstein this morning, which sits at the entrance to a local Billa (supermarket), which is a new construction on a site where I suppose the victim of Nazi aggression lived before being taken to a concentration camp to perish. Although I see these stones all over Vienna, and find myself in contemplation every single time I see them elsewhere around Europe, it is even more jarring to see them in a seemingly random outer suburb/town of the region at the footstep of a local grocery store, and is a severely jarring reminder of the atrocities that occurred in this land, not so long ago. I wish Australia, my native land, would have the courage to do something similar to highlight the atrocities we committed there, on the original peoples. Alas, Australian war hubris is too heavy to pierce that veil ..
- smcl 4y ago
  I have the same thing over the border in Brno, Czech Republic. Didn't really notice them for so long, until suddenly I stopped to read one and realised they're all over the place. I always stop to check them now. Additionally I have similar feelings about the atrocities committed by the UK. To me it feels so unambiguously right to officially acknowledge and apologise that our ancestors did pretty heinous shit (up to and including invading countries this century).
  - noneeeed 4y ago
    Likewise. I get very frustrated by all the people who will refuse to acknowledge that our ancestors did some atrocious things to people. People will just through some extrodinary hoops to rationalise why it either wasn't so terrible, or it was somehow justified in a way that other people's atrocities were not.
    - boffinAudio 4y ago
      As an Australian, visiting Mauthausen - or indeed any of the preserved concentration camps of the past - was particularly humbling. It really highlighted to me that a society that gets honest with itself, improves - and those who don't, just continue to commit the same atrocities. We Australians don't have the courage that Austrians do, when it comes to acknowledging the criminal actions of our past society. Alas, the struggle for acknowledgement is real. A lot of it has to do with the fact that Australias concentration camps and genocide programs were performed in seriously remote locations, far far away from any civil population - so its a lot easier to hide. The camp at Mauthausen can be seen from the local countryside and is clearly maintained to be a visible reminder of extremist totalitarian/authoritarianism to the children who visit it, regularly, as part of their education. That courage is something for which the Austrian people should be proud.
praptak 4y ago
I couldn't agree more. Maybe it makes the grim lessons stay with us a little bit longer - something that I am seriously concerned about given Putin's replay of these events (and also living in Poland).
jemen 4y ago
> It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then. I very much believe that this is the intention, but does it actually though? Oppressive country frequently brings up the past as a safe way to legitimize the present. Russia seems to have had an increase in this in recent years as it now started a war in Europe. Most of the western world seems to not have learned much at all from the second world war and are yet again running black sites, funneling money to regimes and fighting wars to defend some of them. Unfortunately I think part of the popularity of these stone today is that they are no longer provocative. Their existence doesn't seem to have the effect of for example highlighting still exiting companies participation in the holocaust, current day trade policies or crimes against humanity. Putting one of these outside a company, judge or commander involved in past or present atrocities would probably result in it quickly being removed and you potentially landing in jail. But I guess that even if few learns the bigger lesson they might still be a net positive.
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  Putin is not the only person who was successful with this strategy. Usually it goes like this: an enemy attacks us, we defend ourselves, this unites us, and that unity is then abused in the future to legitimize authoritarian rule or even - as in the case of Putin's invasion of Ukraine - a full-scale war. It makes no difference if a person was killed for ridiculing Fuhrer, hiding Jews or refusing to serve vodka[0]. Death is death and I hope one day humanity understands no war makes sense and we stop this insanity, working together to make everybody's lives better, not just one nation we happen to be associated with. [0] https://uarefugees.news/hot-news/in-bucha-the-invaders-shot-a-pro-russian-ex-peoples-deputy-for-refusing-to-pour-vodka/ https://uarefugees.news/hot-news/in-bucha-the-invaders-shot-...
- CaptArmchair 4y ago
  Remembrance and memorials alone don't stop atrocities from happening again. There's a difference between reminded of the past, and actively engaging with the past in the present moment. It's important to give countenance to the fact that democracy, human rights, the rule of law,... in and of itself aren't measures against populism and authoritarianism. By and large, the success of the latter is tied into resentment over key social and economic factors which determine the strength of social cohesion and a sense of equity. If a state doesn't invest in the common interests of its citizenry, over time that will create breeding grounds for people to become resentful, distrustful, tribal, isolated,... The identity politics of populists and authoritarians by and large revolve "we against them" narratives. These are incredibly easy to understand and provide a new framework of meaning and values to disenfranchised people. Minorities become prime targets because they are visibly different and therefor easy to pick out and used as scapegoats. That's what fractures an erstwhile democratic, cohesive society. In Germany, the NSDAP only became successful after 1932, when the effects of the Depression came into full swing in an already unstable political climate of the Weimar Republic. You're right, though, that in a way, the remembrance of the Holocaust doesn't resolve in a clear, consistent moral framework of principles. Just think about how restitution of property and real estate is still a hotly debated topic today. The crux is that questions regarding historic responsibility and guilt and how to approach them are always framed into a backdrop of present day economical and political concerns and interests. And that's just collective behavior that can be changed with an easy silver bullet fix. > Unfortunately I think part of the popularity of these stone today is that they are no longer provocative. I highly doubt that. On an individual level, humans are very much capable of feeling empathy and compassion. For instance, the Auschwitz-Birkenau memorial received a record 2.3 million visitors in 2019. The unspeakable atrocities that happened there still resonate to this very day. If not for countless children and grand-children still deal with a lost connection to their own shared past through the loss of their family in the camps; and the stories that are still begin shared publicly of that great sorrow. The thing that should worry us is people either not even noticing the stones and their significance in the first place, or forgetting their significance the minute they've passed and falling back into biased thinking regarding present day state of the world.
Bellamy 4y ago
> It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. So you are saying we should be reminded and think about the horrors of Nazi's every day and everywhere?
Doxin 4y ago
We have these around where I live. The thing that struck me most is just the sheer number of them. Of course you get taught in history class the death tolls, but seeing it out in the real world hits differently. More are still getting added every year as well. It's sobering.

lyian 4y ago

Yeah, in my city I also stumble across these stones. One day, on my way of getting groceries, I was quite frankly shocked by the frequency of the stolpersteine. I am thankful that these exists and getting reminded now and then is, at least for me, really important and outline in some kind of tiny fraction, how many families suffered the same fate.

hnhg 4y ago

I've seen some that just name a family or couple that were taken away one night and "murdered", which hit me the hardest, personally.

Klaster_1 4y ago

The idea to put a bit more info about the person was brilliant, even a single sentence makes you relate more. There is a similar project in Russia called The Last Address [1], I see these a lot (but probably not enough) in the Saint-Petersburg historical center, and although being a similar age and area of expertise to lots of victims helps, even a brief summary of their "wrongdoings" would go a long way enriching the perspective on our history, especially given current political climate here. "A 30 years old engineer lived here" doesn't ring as close as "a 30 years old engineer who lived here was murdered by the state for a crime of opposing the oppressive regime". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Address https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Address

tpoacher 4y ago
I always thought that a firstperson shooter game where whenever you killed a mook you'd get a quick flashback of that person's life would have been a super interesting concept. Especially if it was a Call of Duty like game, rather than a game where you could choose to avoid killing.
- Klaster_1 4y ago
  Sniper Elite 5 has something like that: every enemy has a short biography visible when you aim at them. Didn't play the game, but like the gesture - people are people no matter what side you are on, doesn't matter who you dehumanize, it's wrong either way.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  This happens in Divinity 2 as an elf. If you eat the body of someone you flash back into their life.
- heartbeats 4y ago
  https://xkcd.com/873/ https://xkcd.com/873/
spython 4y ago
I think with many victims we just don't know what exactly happened – some were opposing the regime, some told a political joke, some were falsely accused by their co-workers in order to get promoted to their position, some were falsely accused by their (innocent) friends who were tortured by NKVD, some had a wrong biography, and others had a wrong name. They all got Article 58.
- winReInstall 4y ago
  A woman in my town was send into the "lighter" political version of the KZ, because she remarked upon recieving the "medal of motherhood" with a cynic "and were shall i pin that, to my bottom?" Totalitarian nightmares have no humor. If you think, your favourite thing in life shoul dbe spared jokes and jests, you are heading right towards that spot. Nothing should be sacrosanct to jokes. I raise my glass to those who walked into the fence, taking theire workforce awaz from the fuehrer and his germinions.
refurb 4y ago
The film Shoah always struck me for similar reasons https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoah_(film) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoah_(film) They did many of these interviews in the 70’s so a little more than 30 years after the Holocaust. Seeing them interview some farmer who was 20 at the time and lived near the village of Auschwitz and remembers seeing the trains going in full of people and coming out empty really hits home as it all happened in the midst of people just living their lives.

boffinAudio 4y ago

Here in Liesing, Austria, I walked past a stolperstein this morning, which sits at the entrance to a local Billa (supermarket), which is a new construction on a site where I suppose the victim of Nazi aggression lived before being taken to a concentration camp to perish. Although I see these stones all over Vienna, and find myself in contemplation every single time I see them elsewhere around Europe, it is even more jarring to see them in a seemingly random outer suburb/town of the region at the footstep of a local grocery store, and is a severely jarring reminder of the atrocities that occurred in this land, not so long ago. I wish Australia, my native land, would have the courage to do something similar to highlight the atrocities we committed there, on the original peoples. Alas, Australian war hubris is too heavy to pierce that veil ..

smcl 4y ago
I have the same thing over the border in Brno, Czech Republic. Didn't really notice them for so long, until suddenly I stopped to read one and realised they're all over the place. I always stop to check them now. Additionally I have similar feelings about the atrocities committed by the UK. To me it feels so unambiguously right to officially acknowledge and apologise that our ancestors did pretty heinous shit (up to and including invading countries this century).
- noneeeed 4y ago
  Likewise. I get very frustrated by all the people who will refuse to acknowledge that our ancestors did some atrocious things to people. People will just through some extrodinary hoops to rationalise why it either wasn't so terrible, or it was somehow justified in a way that other people's atrocities were not.
  - boffinAudio 4y ago
    As an Australian, visiting Mauthausen - or indeed any of the preserved concentration camps of the past - was particularly humbling. It really highlighted to me that a society that gets honest with itself, improves - and those who don't, just continue to commit the same atrocities. We Australians don't have the courage that Austrians do, when it comes to acknowledging the criminal actions of our past society. Alas, the struggle for acknowledgement is real. A lot of it has to do with the fact that Australias concentration camps and genocide programs were performed in seriously remote locations, far far away from any civil population - so its a lot easier to hide. The camp at Mauthausen can be seen from the local countryside and is clearly maintained to be a visible reminder of extremist totalitarian/authoritarianism to the children who visit it, regularly, as part of their education. That courage is something for which the Austrian people should be proud.

praptak 4y ago

I couldn't agree more. Maybe it makes the grim lessons stay with us a little bit longer - something that I am seriously concerned about given Putin's replay of these events (and also living in Poland).

jemen 4y ago

> It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then. I very much believe that this is the intention, but does it actually though? Oppressive country frequently brings up the past as a safe way to legitimize the present. Russia seems to have had an increase in this in recent years as it now started a war in Europe. Most of the western world seems to not have learned much at all from the second world war and are yet again running black sites, funneling money to regimes and fighting wars to defend some of them. Unfortunately I think part of the popularity of these stone today is that they are no longer provocative. Their existence doesn't seem to have the effect of for example highlighting still exiting companies participation in the holocaust, current day trade policies or crimes against humanity. Putting one of these outside a company, judge or commander involved in past or present atrocities would probably result in it quickly being removed and you potentially landing in jail. But I guess that even if few learns the bigger lesson they might still be a net positive.

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
Putin is not the only person who was successful with this strategy. Usually it goes like this: an enemy attacks us, we defend ourselves, this unites us, and that unity is then abused in the future to legitimize authoritarian rule or even - as in the case of Putin's invasion of Ukraine - a full-scale war. It makes no difference if a person was killed for ridiculing Fuhrer, hiding Jews or refusing to serve vodka[0]. Death is death and I hope one day humanity understands no war makes sense and we stop this insanity, working together to make everybody's lives better, not just one nation we happen to be associated with. [0] https://uarefugees.news/hot-news/in-bucha-the-invaders-shot-a-pro-russian-ex-peoples-deputy-for-refusing-to-pour-vodka/ https://uarefugees.news/hot-news/in-bucha-the-invaders-shot-...
CaptArmchair 4y ago
Remembrance and memorials alone don't stop atrocities from happening again. There's a difference between reminded of the past, and actively engaging with the past in the present moment. It's important to give countenance to the fact that democracy, human rights, the rule of law,... in and of itself aren't measures against populism and authoritarianism. By and large, the success of the latter is tied into resentment over key social and economic factors which determine the strength of social cohesion and a sense of equity. If a state doesn't invest in the common interests of its citizenry, over time that will create breeding grounds for people to become resentful, distrustful, tribal, isolated,... The identity politics of populists and authoritarians by and large revolve "we against them" narratives. These are incredibly easy to understand and provide a new framework of meaning and values to disenfranchised people. Minorities become prime targets because they are visibly different and therefor easy to pick out and used as scapegoats. That's what fractures an erstwhile democratic, cohesive society. In Germany, the NSDAP only became successful after 1932, when the effects of the Depression came into full swing in an already unstable political climate of the Weimar Republic. You're right, though, that in a way, the remembrance of the Holocaust doesn't resolve in a clear, consistent moral framework of principles. Just think about how restitution of property and real estate is still a hotly debated topic today. The crux is that questions regarding historic responsibility and guilt and how to approach them are always framed into a backdrop of present day economical and political concerns and interests. And that's just collective behavior that can be changed with an easy silver bullet fix. > Unfortunately I think part of the popularity of these stone today is that they are no longer provocative. I highly doubt that. On an individual level, humans are very much capable of feeling empathy and compassion. For instance, the Auschwitz-Birkenau memorial received a record 2.3 million visitors in 2019. The unspeakable atrocities that happened there still resonate to this very day. If not for countless children and grand-children still deal with a lost connection to their own shared past through the loss of their family in the camps; and the stories that are still begin shared publicly of that great sorrow. The thing that should worry us is people either not even noticing the stones and their significance in the first place, or forgetting their significance the minute they've passed and falling back into biased thinking regarding present day state of the world.

Bellamy 4y ago

> It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. So you are saying we should be reminded and think about the horrors of Nazi's every day and everywhere?

Doxin 4y ago

We have these around where I live. The thing that struck me most is just the sheer number of them. Of course you get taught in history class the death tolls, but seeing it out in the real world hits differently. More are still getting added every year as well. It's sobering.