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Insanely important, especially with the renewed rise of antisemitism - sad to see this downvoted.

by voz_ 4y ago

bowsamic 4y ago
It hasn't even been 100 years and already it is relatively easy to find people who are genuinely and openly sympathetic to the Nazis
- suction 4y ago
  And ironically this is becoming more common in those countries who pride themselves of eradicating Naziism in WW2.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  Even people who continue to stand by their racist statement that there are "very fine people on both sides", and continue to have the fanatical support of the majority of the Republican party.
- baybal2 4y ago
  [dead]
xyzal 4y ago
- rob74 4y ago
  Good question, but what does that have to do with the topic at hand (the Holocaust and commemorating its victims), except maybe whataboutism?
- bushbaba 4y ago
  You’re deviating from the thread topic and encouraging a flame war. Suggest everyone leave this be and focus on the article itself.
- nix23 4y ago
  No why? Most non-orthodox-jews and some orthodox-jews despise what Israel is doing.
- petesergeant 4y ago
  It depends on what you say, according to the IHRA: “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor” and “Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis” are both examples of anti-semitism according to this definition
- voz_ 4y ago
- cs137 4y ago
  No. In fact, most Jews I know are intensely critical of Israel's policies and recent actions. Unfortunately, there is a degree to which antisemitism is disguised behind disproportionate criticism of Israel and the Israeli people, and it's impossible to know, at an individual level, why people hold their opinions. Does Israel's government do awful things for questionable reasons (like most, if not all, national governments)? Yes. Is Israel the worst government in the Middle East? Far from it. To be honest, it's probably the least repressive, racist, or otherwise obnoxious government in the region (that's not setting a high bar). Israeli Arabs (especially women) have more freedoms in Israel than they would in any of the neighboring countries. Should Israel do better? Of course. It's absurd, though, that there's such a strong interest in BDS while the continuing consumption of Saudi oil goes unquestioned by most. Also: why is it that the behavior of Israel's government comes up in a discussion about memorializing people who were murdered before the state of Israel even existed? I have Irish (American) ancestry, but no one has ever asked me to answer for the Irish government (or connected me to it in any way, seeing as my Irish ancestors came over in the early 19th century). It's deeply weird that some people are so quick to connect anything having to do with Jews or Judaism with the conduct of one government in particular, which is thousands of miles away from where many Jews live.
  - edanm 4y ago
    Agree with most of your post, but did want to point out one thing: >[...] most Jews I know are intensely critical of Israel's policies and recent actions. While that certainly might be true wherever you live, note that the majority of the world's Jewish population lives in Israel, and at least some fairly large portion of that population does support Israel's policies and recent actions. (I assume we're talking about the same things here, i.e. actions with regards to Palestinians, as opposed to all the other stuff happening in the country.)
    - cs137 4y ago
      The plurality of the Jewish population is believed to be in the US (there are some issues around estimation) although it's close. As for Israelis and support for their government, that is... complicated. Unfortunately, if the Israeli state didn't exist, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people in the region would likely be murdered by people from neighboring countries. This isn't because Arabs are "innately" warlike or antisemitic (I don't think that's true) but because the states in the region are deeply corrupt, failing states that will (as Russia has done) create an external enemy and launch a war to distract their own people from domestic issues. The Israeli state is deeply problematic, corrupted by capitalism and some amount of racism (as almost all Western states are). It also has a job that is tough as hell: protecting a vulnerable minority group from millions who would murder them. The middle-of-the-road Israeli understands the need to protect themselves, but isn't a huge fan of the settlements (if he thinks about them at all) and certainly would love to see peace in the region.
smcl 4y ago
It's top of the HN front page, it's not getting downvoted. In fact you can’t downvote a submission.
- ad_hominem 4y ago
blueflow 4y ago
Nobody is like, "Oh no! This baddie i just killed could be a Stolperstein in the future". Remembrance is one thing, self-reflection is another. People will genocide their enemies and be like, "Thank god we aren't like the Nazis", or worse, "Trust us the guy we just killed was a Nazi". None of this helps with moral reasoning.

Insanely important, especially with the renewed rise of antisemitism - sad to see this downvoted.

by voz_ 4y ago

Insanely important, especially with the renewed rise of antisemitism - sad to see this downvoted.

It hasn't even been 100 years and already it is relatively easy to find people who are genuinely and openly sympathetic to the Nazis

suction 4y ago
And ironically this is becoming more common in those countries who pride themselves of eradicating Naziism in WW2.
DonHopkins 4y ago
Even people who continue to stand by their racist statement that there are "very fine people on both sides", and continue to have the fanatical support of the majority of the Republican party.
baybal2 4y ago
[dead]

xyzal 4y ago

rob74 4y ago
Good question, but what does that have to do with the topic at hand (the Holocaust and commemorating its victims), except maybe whataboutism?
bushbaba 4y ago
You’re deviating from the thread topic and encouraging a flame war. Suggest everyone leave this be and focus on the article itself.
nix23 4y ago
No why? Most non-orthodox-jews and some orthodox-jews despise what Israel is doing.
petesergeant 4y ago
It depends on what you say, according to the IHRA: “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor” and “Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis” are both examples of anti-semitism according to this definition
voz_ 4y ago
cs137 4y ago
No. In fact, most Jews I know are intensely critical of Israel's policies and recent actions. Unfortunately, there is a degree to which antisemitism is disguised behind disproportionate criticism of Israel and the Israeli people, and it's impossible to know, at an individual level, why people hold their opinions. Does Israel's government do awful things for questionable reasons (like most, if not all, national governments)? Yes. Is Israel the worst government in the Middle East? Far from it. To be honest, it's probably the least repressive, racist, or otherwise obnoxious government in the region (that's not setting a high bar). Israeli Arabs (especially women) have more freedoms in Israel than they would in any of the neighboring countries. Should Israel do better? Of course. It's absurd, though, that there's such a strong interest in BDS while the continuing consumption of Saudi oil goes unquestioned by most. Also: why is it that the behavior of Israel's government comes up in a discussion about memorializing people who were murdered before the state of Israel even existed? I have Irish (American) ancestry, but no one has ever asked me to answer for the Irish government (or connected me to it in any way, seeing as my Irish ancestors came over in the early 19th century). It's deeply weird that some people are so quick to connect anything having to do with Jews or Judaism with the conduct of one government in particular, which is thousands of miles away from where many Jews live.
- edanm 4y ago
  Agree with most of your post, but did want to point out one thing: >[...] most Jews I know are intensely critical of Israel's policies and recent actions. While that certainly might be true wherever you live, note that the majority of the world's Jewish population lives in Israel, and at least some fairly large portion of that population does support Israel's policies and recent actions. (I assume we're talking about the same things here, i.e. actions with regards to Palestinians, as opposed to all the other stuff happening in the country.)
  - cs137 4y ago
    The plurality of the Jewish population is believed to be in the US (there are some issues around estimation) although it's close. As for Israelis and support for their government, that is... complicated. Unfortunately, if the Israeli state didn't exist, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people in the region would likely be murdered by people from neighboring countries. This isn't because Arabs are "innately" warlike or antisemitic (I don't think that's true) but because the states in the region are deeply corrupt, failing states that will (as Russia has done) create an external enemy and launch a war to distract their own people from domestic issues. The Israeli state is deeply problematic, corrupted by capitalism and some amount of racism (as almost all Western states are). It also has a job that is tough as hell: protecting a vulnerable minority group from millions who would murder them. The middle-of-the-road Israeli understands the need to protect themselves, but isn't a huge fan of the settlements (if he thinks about them at all) and certainly would love to see peace in the region.

smcl 4y ago

It's top of the HN front page, it's not getting downvoted. In fact you can’t downvote a submission.

ad_hominem 4y ago

blueflow 4y ago

Nobody is like, "Oh no! This baddie i just killed could be a Stolperstein in the future". Remembrance is one thing, self-reflection is another. People will genocide their enemies and be like, "Thank god we aren't like the Nazis", or worse, "Trust us the guy we just killed was a Nazi". None of this helps with moral reasoning.