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>My personal experience is that consciousness, like free will, is a useful illusion An illusion to whom? It isn't meaningful to say that an unconscious thing e

>My personal experience is that consciousness, like free will, is a useful illusion An illusion to whom? It isn't meaningful to say that an unconscious thing experiences illusions.

jvanderbot 4y ago
To no one. "It is an illusion" is transcribed and recalled as an explanation for feelings that drive actions in the person who said it, because we evolved to be able to explain our actions with sophisticated language, and to judge the arguments of others so that we can act together to overcome challenges and to kill the out group. In this case, OP is, without knowing it, signaling which group is his, and which is not, and we'll all jump behind the most convincing speech etc etc. We do these things without thinking about it, because we do not understand consciousness, because it cannot be understood, because it is not a thing. It is a construct we share and use to separate ourselves from the animals so that we can kill them and eat them as a group.
- voldacar 4y ago
  >"It is an illusion" is transcribed and recalled as an explanation for feelings that drive actions in the person who said it, because we evolved to be able to explain our actions with sophisticated language, and to judge the arguments of others so that we can act together to overcome challenges and to kill the out group. A p-zombie could do all of those things just fine. >we do not understand consciousness, because it cannot be understood, because it is not a thing. Maybe if it's not a thing, you should stop predicating things of it. You should figure out how to use language consistently before engaging in philosophically fraught discussions like this one. >It is a construct we share and use to separate ourselves from the animals so that we can kill them and eat them as a group. It is unclear to me why unconscious beings should need to separate themselves from other animals (with a wholly illusory meaningless concept that cannot be understood, btw) in order to kill them and eat them.
  - jvanderbot 4y ago
    I did ramble, and of course it wasn't clear, it's not totally clear to me. > A p-zombie could do all of those things just fine. We are p-zombies. Just a collection of them. I don't understand and have consciousness over my hand when it jumps away from pain, my spine did that without any of my thoughts being directed towards it. I cannot control my reaction to almost anything, in reality. I couldn't change the initial feelings that happened when I read your post. Yes, are nothing more than our bodies accumulated evolved p zombies. Including this bit that types this out to calm the zombie that is evolved to respond to verbal rebuttals. Even the use of first person pronouns is part of the reflexes that are very deep.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > A p-zombie could do all of those things just fine. Obviously, if a p-zombie can exist, it can do anything a conscious being can, because the definition of a p-zombie is that it is indistinguishable from a conscious being by behavior or other external observation but lacks a mystical, non-physical essence which is consciousness. Of course, if consciousness is the kind of thing subject to empirical analysis, p-zombies cannot exist. P-zombies are a consequence of the assumption that the universe is not fully physical and subject to scientific inquiry and that consciousness specifically is immune to it. This assumption is cloaked in circumlocution, because the whole point of p-zombies is to serve as part of an argument against the mere physical nature of consciousness, and it gives up the game if it is clear from step one that the argument is rests on assuming it's own conclusion.
- V-2 4y ago
  > [Consciousness] is a construct we share and use to separate ourselves from the animals so that we can kill them and eat them as a group. Humans have been killing other humans for hundreds of thousands of years without having to deny that their victims are conscious. In some cases even stressing this aspect (there have been numerous cultures that believed in various forms of 'capturing souls' of their slain, or eaten, enemies).

>My personal experience is that consciousness, like free will, is a useful illusion An illusion to whom? It isn't meaningful to say that an unconscious thing experiences illusions.

jvanderbot 4y ago

To no one. "It is an illusion" is transcribed and recalled as an explanation for feelings that drive actions in the person who said it, because we evolved to be able to explain our actions with sophisticated language, and to judge the arguments of others so that we can act together to overcome challenges and to kill the out group. In this case, OP is, without knowing it, signaling which group is his, and which is not, and we'll all jump behind the most convincing speech etc etc. We do these things without thinking about it, because we do not understand consciousness, because it cannot be understood, because it is not a thing. It is a construct we share and use to separate ourselves from the animals so that we can kill them and eat them as a group.

voldacar 4y ago
>"It is an illusion" is transcribed and recalled as an explanation for feelings that drive actions in the person who said it, because we evolved to be able to explain our actions with sophisticated language, and to judge the arguments of others so that we can act together to overcome challenges and to kill the out group. A p-zombie could do all of those things just fine. >we do not understand consciousness, because it cannot be understood, because it is not a thing. Maybe if it's not a thing, you should stop predicating things of it. You should figure out how to use language consistently before engaging in philosophically fraught discussions like this one. >It is a construct we share and use to separate ourselves from the animals so that we can kill them and eat them as a group. It is unclear to me why unconscious beings should need to separate themselves from other animals (with a wholly illusory meaningless concept that cannot be understood, btw) in order to kill them and eat them.
- jvanderbot 4y ago
  I did ramble, and of course it wasn't clear, it's not totally clear to me. > A p-zombie could do all of those things just fine. We are p-zombies. Just a collection of them. I don't understand and have consciousness over my hand when it jumps away from pain, my spine did that without any of my thoughts being directed towards it. I cannot control my reaction to almost anything, in reality. I couldn't change the initial feelings that happened when I read your post. Yes, are nothing more than our bodies accumulated evolved p zombies. Including this bit that types this out to calm the zombie that is evolved to respond to verbal rebuttals. Even the use of first person pronouns is part of the reflexes that are very deep.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > A p-zombie could do all of those things just fine. Obviously, if a p-zombie can exist, it can do anything a conscious being can, because the definition of a p-zombie is that it is indistinguishable from a conscious being by behavior or other external observation but lacks a mystical, non-physical essence which is consciousness. Of course, if consciousness is the kind of thing subject to empirical analysis, p-zombies cannot exist. P-zombies are a consequence of the assumption that the universe is not fully physical and subject to scientific inquiry and that consciousness specifically is immune to it. This assumption is cloaked in circumlocution, because the whole point of p-zombies is to serve as part of an argument against the mere physical nature of consciousness, and it gives up the game if it is clear from step one that the argument is rests on assuming it's own conclusion.
V-2 4y ago
> [Consciousness] is a construct we share and use to separate ourselves from the animals so that we can kill them and eat them as a group. Humans have been killing other humans for hundreds of thousands of years without having to deny that their victims are conscious. In some cases even stressing this aspect (there have been numerous cultures that believed in various forms of 'capturing souls' of their slain, or eaten, enemies).