4 ms·

I'm just curious as to when exactly quality arises from quantity

by zarmin 4y ago

epgui 4y ago
What do you mean? Are you referring to emergence? The issue is that we know very very well that “consciousness” is not “one thing”, but rather a collection of features, all (or most) of which can exist in isolation, and all of which can have a whole spectrum of both pathological and “normal” forms or states. Generally speaking, different features emerge at different scales, so there is no particular reason to think that all of the things that make up “consciousness” would emerge at the same scale, at the same level of organization, or even at the same physical location in the brain. We can assume that interesting features emerge at the “group of neurons” level or at the tissue level, but that’s a pretty wide scale. Crude illustration: “consciousness” is much more like a network of microservices than it is a monolith… And it has fuzzy borders and is not even well encapsulated from its environment.
- zarmin 4y ago
  I'm referring to subjective experience. Which neurons have to fire for me to experience the subjective taste of chocolate? And how many neurons do I need before that can happen?
  - epgui 4y ago
    Blumenfeld won’t answer exactly that specific question, but it will help you understand how that works more generally.
    - zarmin 4y ago
      The book covers how quality (subjective experience) arises from quantity (# of neurons)? Could you point me to a section please? I'm super intrigued.
      - epgui 4y ago
        The book as a whole gives you the tools to understand how emergence happens in the brain. I can point you to the resource, but I can’t do the learning for you. It’s also possible you’re less interested in the brain per se, and more interested in “emergence” in the abstract. If that’s the case, there is no shortage of good books and resources you can turn to. Look up “emergence science” and “complexity science” and go from there: it’s not an easy topic, it’s very cross-disciplinary, and to really understand it requires a fair amount of maths (imo).

I'm just curious as to when exactly quality arises from quantity

by zarmin 4y ago

I'm just curious as to when exactly quality arises from quantity

What do you mean? Are you referring to emergence? The issue is that we know very very well that “consciousness” is not “one thing”, but rather a collection of features, all (or most) of which can exist in isolation, and all of which can have a whole spectrum of both pathological and “normal” forms or states. Generally speaking, different features emerge at different scales, so there is no particular reason to think that all of the things that make up “consciousness” would emerge at the same scale, at the same level of organization, or even at the same physical location in the brain. We can assume that interesting features emerge at the “group of neurons” level or at the tissue level, but that’s a pretty wide scale. Crude illustration: “consciousness” is much more like a network of microservices than it is a monolith… And it has fuzzy borders and is not even well encapsulated from its environment.

zarmin 4y ago
I'm referring to subjective experience. Which neurons have to fire for me to experience the subjective taste of chocolate? And how many neurons do I need before that can happen?
- epgui 4y ago
  Blumenfeld won’t answer exactly that specific question, but it will help you understand how that works more generally.
  - zarmin 4y ago
    The book covers how quality (subjective experience) arises from quantity (# of neurons)? Could you point me to a section please? I'm super intrigued.
    - epgui 4y ago
      The book as a whole gives you the tools to understand how emergence happens in the brain. I can point you to the resource, but I can’t do the learning for you. It’s also possible you’re less interested in the brain per se, and more interested in “emergence” in the abstract. If that’s the case, there is no shortage of good books and resources you can turn to. Look up “emergence science” and “complexity science” and go from there: it’s not an easy topic, it’s very cross-disciplinary, and to really understand it requires a fair amount of maths (imo).