5 ms·

Great. Even more stuff we can blame on our parents. At some point, more people should take responsibility for the hand that they are given and run with those c

Great. Even more stuff we can blame on our parents. At some point, more people should take responsibility for the hand that they are given and run with those cards. At the best, we now have more ammo as parents to deal with trauma so we don't pass it off to the offspring.

ge96 4y ago
Makes me so annoyed people say "you're lucky" like nah, I worked my ass off
- rjbwork 4y ago
  Hard work alone does not yield success. Any of us who have succeeded have had a huge amount of luck. Simply being born in what is presumably a first world country during a time of relative prosperity is already a tremendous amount of luck.
- smt88 4y ago
  Lots of people work their ass off. My housekeeper does, and so do the guys who collect my garbage. They're never going to be financially stable in the way I am, though. I work hard too, but I also have luck. You can be rich, lazy, and lucky. You can be rich, hardworking, and lucky. But you can't be rich, hardworking, and unlucky. Luck is necessary ingredient.
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    Yeah to be honest that was always something upsetting about my life. I did really well in math, science, and engineering, but I never really had to try. I was lucky to have a roof over my head growing up, a stable home with science toys and free time to watch educational science shows. I was lucky I had an aptitude for those subjects. But success wasn’t hard for me. I didn’t work very hard. I didn’t do my homework. I dropped out of college after four years and a bunch of dropped classes. And yet I’m so good at engineering I’ve never had any trouble finding a job, and I’ve always had a roof over my head. I watch people work so hard and still struggle. And it’s upsetting. I think everyone should have it as easy as I have, or easier. There is so much wealth in this world. But it doesn’t go to the hard workers. It goes to the lucky. Amongst the lucky there will be some perception of fairness and equity, but that is only because they can’t see the people far above and below them.
    - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
      I seriously recommend you learn and implement the word “grateful” whenever you’re feeling bad about being “lucky”.
    - plutonorm 4y ago
      We do not have the power to change it. But maybe one day there will be a social movement to make the world a fairer place. When that day comes lean into the movement, provide support, risk some of that security that you have for the possibility of a brighter future for all. Promise yourself that you will follow through when the time comes. That is how I assuage my guilt. If the time is ever right to create meaningful change for the betterment of all, I will be there on the front lines. But the world has to wake up a little first. Until then I will just keep waiting.
      - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
        > We do not have the power to change it. We absolutely do > maybe one day there will be a social movement to make the world a fairer place These movements have existed for hundreds of years > When that day comes lean into the movement That day is in the past > Promise yourself that you will follow through when the time comes. That is how I assuage my guilt. If the time is ever right to create meaningful change for the betterment of all, I will be there on the front lines. I don't want to be rude because you seem to want to help, but assuaging your guilt by hoping some day in the future you will contribute to something positive seems like a plan for inaction. This seems like a great way to ensure that things don't change. There are many movements to change the world for the better. I don't want to get in to specific ideologies but I changed my career so that I am always working in open source, trying to undercut for-profit companies that would patent ideas and charge high prices by offering open source alternatives that people all over the world can build for free (I am working on an open source farming robot project). If you want to know more about how I view this topic more broadly, you can watch one of my videos on the subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFcd5EQgMEQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFcd5EQgMEQ
        4y ago
  - losvedir 4y ago
    > My housekeeper does, and so do the guys who collect my garbage. They're never going to be financially stable in the way I am, though. This just seems overly reductive in the opposite direction. Do you not know any housekeepers or garbage collectors? It feels like you're going so far out of your way to try to make the person you're responding to feel sorry for them that you're being cruel and dismissive. My mother-in-law was an immigrant housekeeper who over the course of her life eventually became a well paid live-in private chef, for example. And even if someone doesn't become rich they can often provide for subsequent generations. My Dad was able to become a doctor because his immigrant construction laborer father was able to give him enough stability to do well in school. This thread is about having compassion, and certainly the top level comment lacks it. But your comment also kind of lacks it? I know it tries to, but it feels very condescending to me, and takes the agency from vast swathes of people. I can't imagine hanging out among "housekeepers and garbage collectors" and not seeing that they're just people, too, and some are among a vibrant community and have dreams and aspirations for themselves or their children, and hearing bragging of all the success stories of those who have become financially stable the way you are.
    - smt88 4y ago
      > Do you not know any housekeepers or garbage collectors? I know my housekeeper very well. We're friends, we've played online games together, and he's cleaned for me for almost 10 years. I help him with his side hustles whenever I can. > It feels like you're going so far out of your way to try to make the person you're responding to feel sorry for them that you're being cruel and dismissive. This is a bizarre reading of my comment. I was trying to think of the hardest-working people I know. I didn't choose them because they are people to pity. Upward mobility in the US is at its lowest in several generations[1]. That's my whole point. > My mother-in-law was an immigrant housekeeper who over the course of her life eventually became a well paid live-in private chef, for example. Great! Doesn't change my point. I don't work as hard as a garbage collector, and I earn 6x what a garbage collector in my city makes by working as a privileged software developer. These people may be financially stable and have good lives, but they won't have money thrown at them the way I (and a lot of software developers) have. > I know it tries to, but it feels very condescending to me, and takes the agency from vast swathes of people. Yes, that is my whole point. We live in a society that takes away people's agency. They can work tirelessly and still not have the "pedigree" that a lot of companies look for. A lot of our society is determined by which family you're lucky enough to be born in, and that is what has taken people's agency away. As for the rest of it, I can't control how you interpret my words. I feel condescending toward people who are lucky like me and don't realize it. I don't feel condescending toward people who work hard and take care of their families. 1. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-mobility-america/491240/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-...
- arwhatever 4y ago
  Let’s keep it going - This thread is close to solving whether success is due entirely to luck or entirely to hard work!
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  Just because you worked your ass off doesn't mean that you weren't lucky. It just means you worked your ass off. But so far, you probably either never experienced poverty or was lucky enough to get out. Lots of folks work their ass off and never are able to lift themselves out of poverty. Chances are, you didn't get really sick in school and had to hold off on your studies. And you didn't lose a job because you wound up with an autoimmune disorder and weren't at the job long enough to qualify for FMLA, which was unpaid anyway. If you went to higher education, especially if you went for a Masters or higher - or had any degree that requires unpaid internship - you had someone to help support you during that time - parents, partner, etc. And the list goes on. So many things in everyone's life are the result of just getting lucky and people have no control over this. Sometimes it is just luck avoiding things and sometimes it is just that some folks have a much better starting hand than other folks. Not everyone can get the good cards because the really good cards need to be unlocked with good cards. They still work their asses off, though.
  - ge96 4y ago
    Ehh I have written about my history before (washing plates/factory work to SWE) I tried and it took years but I made it, that's my point, wasn't faith... didn't just happen, I guided it
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - nkjnlknlk 4y ago
      You worked hard. Take pride in that. But also know that you were lucky that your hard work manifested into something. Plenty of people work hard, smart, etc. and get nowhere or die. Pretending otherwise is silly.
      - ge96 4y ago
        It sounds dismissive. Try that on your friend or someone that says "I worked hard on this, my company sold, etc..." Ahh you were lucky nice.
- annyeonghada 4y ago
  This is what every hard working person who has reached success think of themselves while ignoring every istance of luck. How many people have worked harded than you and end up in a menial job, defeated and burned out? I bet they are a lot. And how many just inherited wealth and never lifted a finger in their life? I know they are a lot.
wjnc 4y ago
Your choice for the word "blame" is telling? Blame would not be the word I'd use in this case. It's understanding. Understanding that people have traumas. Traumas percolate through the generations. Without elaborating too much - both in my wife's and my family their traumas are for a large part World War II related. Active fighting, hunger, uncertainty, refugeeship, absence - it's all reflected in our (grand-)parents generation and thus in our genes and upbringing. We have our own traumas that I'm unable to reflect on yet. That's why I feel an extra sadness when watching Ukrainian children. Traumas live on for ages. Thing that comes to mind: We have local cultures celebrating battles with Spain 400+ years ago. Humans are a hardy bunch. I don't think it's biological after many generations, but culture is an important part of humanity.
- eric4smith 4y ago
  I used "blame" now because society is filled with people who blame something else for their station in life. Don't you think that it makes sense in that context?
  - Teever 4y ago
    "If you believe that your thoughts originate inside your brain, do you also believe that television shows are made inside your television set?" I am because we are. We are all irrevocably linked, even more so in the hyperconnected digital age.
  - Hoasi 4y ago
    > Don't you think that it makes sense in that context? It does, in an age of entitlement where we teach kids any of their feelings are valid reasons to bully other people to get what they want.
  - FollowingTheDao 4y ago
    > I used "blame" now because society is filled with people who blame something else for their station in life. Wow. You have a lack of compassion you just do not see. So if I punch you in the face ,the bruise that follows is your fault? I mean, why are you blaming me for that bruise on your face? Trauma creates verified changes in brain structure. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-021-01357-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-021-01357-z You know, like a bruise, or a broken leg. So these people need help, not to be left alone with even more burden on themselves.
plutonorm 4y ago
Take responsibility for the hand of poker they are dealt? Take responsibility for a random occurrence, that's a pretty weird statement. Better is to understand and live in the truth - that many aspects of our lives are random. Including our own decisions, free will is an illusion and whether we decide to lift ourselves up by our bootstraps (as is deemed 'good') or sink into misery, it is a foregone conclusion which will happen. All we can do is surf the experience moment to moment, year by year. Free yourself from blame, from responsibility, know that the void is merely playing with all possibilities. Let that very subtly different you in one of the other realities do the hard work of saving the world, or whatever grand scheme suits you best. They are the ones for whom it was meant to be.
- dionidium 4y ago
  The problem with this is that it infinitely regresses. If I can't control anything I do, then what's the difference if I'm empathetic and compassionate or not? Surely I'm just "riding the wave" either way. These admonitions always start by saying we have no free will and then advising a course of action based on that knowledge, but that's incoherent.
  - plutonorm 4y ago
    Is it? You can have no free will, but still be influenced by the words that come out of my mouth. Maybe in the process your life has less suffering in it. I don't know, I am experiencing a sensation that implies that I hope it does.
    - dionidium 4y ago
      Right, but without free will you didn't choose those words and I have no choice how I react to them. It's all just playing out the way a plinko ball finds a route to the bottom.
      - plutonorm 4y ago
        so? that is the way it is.
FollowingTheDao 4y ago
> Great. Even more stuff we can blame on our parents. Yes, and why not? The point is not so much blame but making them responsible for their actions. To put the responsibility where is lay is part of healing from the trauma. To say that people should take responsibility for the trauma that other gave them will in no way help anyone heal. My father was horrible and my mother was loving. If it were not for her I would probably be dead. I can hold my mother my mother for saving my life as much as I can my father for causing my suffering. And we have no choice but to take responsibility for the trauma. But those who abused us? They have a choice, unless we force them into accountability by calling them out. My brothers also abused me and that probably played a role in my mood disorder. So now they are all living fine lives and I am homeless with no health care and in and out of psyche wards. When I asked them if they could loan me $500 for a deposit on an apartment my sister said; "All you want is the money!" :^/ It is these people that pass on the trauma, the people who think that those of us who had the trauma "should take responsibility" and do nothing to help us heal, both mentally and physically.

ge96 4y ago

Makes me so annoyed people say "you're lucky" like nah, I worked my ass off

rjbwork 4y ago
Hard work alone does not yield success. Any of us who have succeeded have had a huge amount of luck. Simply being born in what is presumably a first world country during a time of relative prosperity is already a tremendous amount of luck.
smt88 4y ago
Lots of people work their ass off. My housekeeper does, and so do the guys who collect my garbage. They're never going to be financially stable in the way I am, though. I work hard too, but I also have luck. You can be rich, lazy, and lucky. You can be rich, hardworking, and lucky. But you can't be rich, hardworking, and unlucky. Luck is necessary ingredient.
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  Yeah to be honest that was always something upsetting about my life. I did really well in math, science, and engineering, but I never really had to try. I was lucky to have a roof over my head growing up, a stable home with science toys and free time to watch educational science shows. I was lucky I had an aptitude for those subjects. But success wasn’t hard for me. I didn’t work very hard. I didn’t do my homework. I dropped out of college after four years and a bunch of dropped classes. And yet I’m so good at engineering I’ve never had any trouble finding a job, and I’ve always had a roof over my head. I watch people work so hard and still struggle. And it’s upsetting. I think everyone should have it as easy as I have, or easier. There is so much wealth in this world. But it doesn’t go to the hard workers. It goes to the lucky. Amongst the lucky there will be some perception of fairness and equity, but that is only because they can’t see the people far above and below them.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    I seriously recommend you learn and implement the word “grateful” whenever you’re feeling bad about being “lucky”.
  - plutonorm 4y ago
    We do not have the power to change it. But maybe one day there will be a social movement to make the world a fairer place. When that day comes lean into the movement, provide support, risk some of that security that you have for the possibility of a brighter future for all. Promise yourself that you will follow through when the time comes. That is how I assuage my guilt. If the time is ever right to create meaningful change for the betterment of all, I will be there on the front lines. But the world has to wake up a little first. Until then I will just keep waiting.
    - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
      > We do not have the power to change it. We absolutely do > maybe one day there will be a social movement to make the world a fairer place These movements have existed for hundreds of years > When that day comes lean into the movement That day is in the past > Promise yourself that you will follow through when the time comes. That is how I assuage my guilt. If the time is ever right to create meaningful change for the betterment of all, I will be there on the front lines. I don't want to be rude because you seem to want to help, but assuaging your guilt by hoping some day in the future you will contribute to something positive seems like a plan for inaction. This seems like a great way to ensure that things don't change. There are many movements to change the world for the better. I don't want to get in to specific ideologies but I changed my career so that I am always working in open source, trying to undercut for-profit companies that would patent ideas and charge high prices by offering open source alternatives that people all over the world can build for free (I am working on an open source farming robot project). If you want to know more about how I view this topic more broadly, you can watch one of my videos on the subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFcd5EQgMEQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFcd5EQgMEQ
      - 4y ago
- losvedir 4y ago
  > My housekeeper does, and so do the guys who collect my garbage. They're never going to be financially stable in the way I am, though. This just seems overly reductive in the opposite direction. Do you not know any housekeepers or garbage collectors? It feels like you're going so far out of your way to try to make the person you're responding to feel sorry for them that you're being cruel and dismissive. My mother-in-law was an immigrant housekeeper who over the course of her life eventually became a well paid live-in private chef, for example. And even if someone doesn't become rich they can often provide for subsequent generations. My Dad was able to become a doctor because his immigrant construction laborer father was able to give him enough stability to do well in school. This thread is about having compassion, and certainly the top level comment lacks it. But your comment also kind of lacks it? I know it tries to, but it feels very condescending to me, and takes the agency from vast swathes of people. I can't imagine hanging out among "housekeepers and garbage collectors" and not seeing that they're just people, too, and some are among a vibrant community and have dreams and aspirations for themselves or their children, and hearing bragging of all the success stories of those who have become financially stable the way you are.
  - smt88 4y ago
    > Do you not know any housekeepers or garbage collectors? I know my housekeeper very well. We're friends, we've played online games together, and he's cleaned for me for almost 10 years. I help him with his side hustles whenever I can. > It feels like you're going so far out of your way to try to make the person you're responding to feel sorry for them that you're being cruel and dismissive. This is a bizarre reading of my comment. I was trying to think of the hardest-working people I know. I didn't choose them because they are people to pity. Upward mobility in the US is at its lowest in several generations[1]. That's my whole point. > My mother-in-law was an immigrant housekeeper who over the course of her life eventually became a well paid live-in private chef, for example. Great! Doesn't change my point. I don't work as hard as a garbage collector, and I earn 6x what a garbage collector in my city makes by working as a privileged software developer. These people may be financially stable and have good lives, but they won't have money thrown at them the way I (and a lot of software developers) have. > I know it tries to, but it feels very condescending to me, and takes the agency from vast swathes of people. Yes, that is my whole point. We live in a society that takes away people's agency. They can work tirelessly and still not have the "pedigree" that a lot of companies look for. A lot of our society is determined by which family you're lucky enough to be born in, and that is what has taken people's agency away. As for the rest of it, I can't control how you interpret my words. I feel condescending toward people who are lucky like me and don't realize it. I don't feel condescending toward people who work hard and take care of their families. 1. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-mobility-america/491240/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-...
arwhatever 4y ago
Let’s keep it going - This thread is close to solving whether success is due entirely to luck or entirely to hard work!
Broken_Hippo 4y ago
Just because you worked your ass off doesn't mean that you weren't lucky. It just means you worked your ass off. But so far, you probably either never experienced poverty or was lucky enough to get out. Lots of folks work their ass off and never are able to lift themselves out of poverty. Chances are, you didn't get really sick in school and had to hold off on your studies. And you didn't lose a job because you wound up with an autoimmune disorder and weren't at the job long enough to qualify for FMLA, which was unpaid anyway. If you went to higher education, especially if you went for a Masters or higher - or had any degree that requires unpaid internship - you had someone to help support you during that time - parents, partner, etc. And the list goes on. So many things in everyone's life are the result of just getting lucky and people have no control over this. Sometimes it is just luck avoiding things and sometimes it is just that some folks have a much better starting hand than other folks. Not everyone can get the good cards because the really good cards need to be unlocked with good cards. They still work their asses off, though.
- ge96 4y ago
  Ehh I have written about my history before (washing plates/factory work to SWE) I tried and it took years but I made it, that's my point, wasn't faith... didn't just happen, I guided it
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nkjnlknlk 4y ago
    You worked hard. Take pride in that. But also know that you were lucky that your hard work manifested into something. Plenty of people work hard, smart, etc. and get nowhere or die. Pretending otherwise is silly.
    - ge96 4y ago
      It sounds dismissive. Try that on your friend or someone that says "I worked hard on this, my company sold, etc..." Ahh you were lucky nice.
annyeonghada 4y ago
This is what every hard working person who has reached success think of themselves while ignoring every istance of luck. How many people have worked harded than you and end up in a menial job, defeated and burned out? I bet they are a lot. And how many just inherited wealth and never lifted a finger in their life? I know they are a lot.

wjnc 4y ago

Your choice for the word "blame" is telling? Blame would not be the word I'd use in this case. It's understanding. Understanding that people have traumas. Traumas percolate through the generations. Without elaborating too much - both in my wife's and my family their traumas are for a large part World War II related. Active fighting, hunger, uncertainty, refugeeship, absence - it's all reflected in our (grand-)parents generation and thus in our genes and upbringing. We have our own traumas that I'm unable to reflect on yet. That's why I feel an extra sadness when watching Ukrainian children. Traumas live on for ages. Thing that comes to mind: We have local cultures celebrating battles with Spain 400+ years ago. Humans are a hardy bunch. I don't think it's biological after many generations, but culture is an important part of humanity.

eric4smith 4y ago
I used "blame" now because society is filled with people who blame something else for their station in life. Don't you think that it makes sense in that context?
- Teever 4y ago
  "If you believe that your thoughts originate inside your brain, do you also believe that television shows are made inside your television set?" I am because we are. We are all irrevocably linked, even more so in the hyperconnected digital age.
- Hoasi 4y ago
  > Don't you think that it makes sense in that context? It does, in an age of entitlement where we teach kids any of their feelings are valid reasons to bully other people to get what they want.
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  > I used "blame" now because society is filled with people who blame something else for their station in life. Wow. You have a lack of compassion you just do not see. So if I punch you in the face ,the bruise that follows is your fault? I mean, why are you blaming me for that bruise on your face? Trauma creates verified changes in brain structure. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-021-01357-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-021-01357-z You know, like a bruise, or a broken leg. So these people need help, not to be left alone with even more burden on themselves.

plutonorm 4y ago

Take responsibility for the hand of poker they are dealt? Take responsibility for a random occurrence, that's a pretty weird statement. Better is to understand and live in the truth - that many aspects of our lives are random. Including our own decisions, free will is an illusion and whether we decide to lift ourselves up by our bootstraps (as is deemed 'good') or sink into misery, it is a foregone conclusion which will happen. All we can do is surf the experience moment to moment, year by year. Free yourself from blame, from responsibility, know that the void is merely playing with all possibilities. Let that very subtly different you in one of the other realities do the hard work of saving the world, or whatever grand scheme suits you best. They are the ones for whom it was meant to be.

dionidium 4y ago
The problem with this is that it infinitely regresses. If I can't control anything I do, then what's the difference if I'm empathetic and compassionate or not? Surely I'm just "riding the wave" either way. These admonitions always start by saying we have no free will and then advising a course of action based on that knowledge, but that's incoherent.
- plutonorm 4y ago
  Is it? You can have no free will, but still be influenced by the words that come out of my mouth. Maybe in the process your life has less suffering in it. I don't know, I am experiencing a sensation that implies that I hope it does.
  - dionidium 4y ago
    Right, but without free will you didn't choose those words and I have no choice how I react to them. It's all just playing out the way a plinko ball finds a route to the bottom.
    - plutonorm 4y ago
      so? that is the way it is.

FollowingTheDao 4y ago

> Great. Even more stuff we can blame on our parents. Yes, and why not? The point is not so much blame but making them responsible for their actions. To put the responsibility where is lay is part of healing from the trauma. To say that people should take responsibility for the trauma that other gave them will in no way help anyone heal. My father was horrible and my mother was loving. If it were not for her I would probably be dead. I can hold my mother my mother for saving my life as much as I can my father for causing my suffering. And we have no choice but to take responsibility for the trauma. But those who abused us? They have a choice, unless we force them into accountability by calling them out. My brothers also abused me and that probably played a role in my mood disorder. So now they are all living fine lives and I am homeless with no health care and in and out of psyche wards. When I asked them if they could loan me $500 for a deposit on an apartment my sister said; "All you want is the money!" :^/ It is these people that pass on the trauma, the people who think that those of us who had the trauma "should take responsibility" and do nothing to help us heal, both mentally and physically.