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It seems to me that we've reached Peak Word Processor. I followed what my kids were doing as they went through school. Even in grade school, they were required

It seems to me that we've reached Peak Word Processor. I followed what my kids were doing as they went through school. Even in grade school, they were required to learn word processing as if their "careers" depended on it. They had to follow strict formatting instructions such as line spacing and page margins for documents that would never be printed. The word processors that they learned on are of course obsolete and forgotten now. At the workplace, it definitely depends on one's field. When I started at my job 25 years ago, people still word processed and printed a lot of documents. Today, most text is entered in the e-mail or chat editor. If someone wants to spin up a document, they pull up whatever editor is provided by the workplace, or Google Docs, but the problem of finding out how to use all of the formatting features is bypassed by just not using those features. Text has gotten more informal. Graphics are added by using a screen shot capture utility. Meanwhile, the techies are using Markdown, and even the word processors (or whatever online editors) recognize Markdown tags and automatically apply formatting.

throwaway787544 4y ago
As a techie who writes a lot of docs, I kinda hate Markdown. I use Markdown for all my to-do lists and notes, but it sucks balls at conveying complex information in compact form and being readable. Any good docs written with it need touching up to be easier to read. With 10-20 additional formatting functions it would be decent. Meanwhile, most word processors have crappy UX and require training to figure out the mystic incantations to get the presentation right, and then screw it up at save/export time. We could definitely do better.
- gumby 4y ago
  It was intended to be a simple way to type a few html tags from a time when there weren’t many. The idea was if you needed more you’d switch to a “real” tool. Which is a long explanation for “your needs exceed the capabilities of that tool, and thus your dislike is rational.” The various extensions that add additional capabilities, such as the ones you describe always force me to consult documentation (which kind of defeats the purpose) and, as you note, they all suck balls.
  - dredmorbius 4y ago
    As I commented some years ago regarding another tool: it's a simple tool, designed for simple tasks. A constant of my own career has been pushing tools well beyond their reasonable limits. That's usually an exceptionally reliable sign that I need to find a more appropriate tool. Markdown is a tool for conveniently generating rudimentary HTML quickly and with low overhead. Using tools such as Pandoc, this extends ot other markup languages. But the point remains that once you've pushed Markdown to its limits, you should choose a more appropriate tool. I lean toward LaTeX myself, though HTML is often useful as well.
- thangalin 4y ago
  My FOSS desktop text editor, KeenWrite[0], completely separates content from presentation. There are a handful of ConTeXt-based "themes"[1] that act as starting points for understanding the magic incantations of mapping XHTML into TeX. The XHTML is produced by converting Markdown documents. Producing a PDF file from TeX rarely messes up when exporting and the output is pleasing.[3] Mind you, TeX isn't all that user-friendly, so having the power/correctness of TeX with the "simplicity" of GUI-based word processors would be amazing. [0]: https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite [1]: https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite-themes https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite-themes [2]: https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite/blob/master/docs/screenshots.md https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite/blob/master/docs/scr...
- forgotmypw17 4y ago
  The reason I dislike Markdown is that it more often than not formats things I didn't want formatted at all, escaping the formatting tokens is not intuitive and inconsistent across different implementations, AND if I were to copy and paste the text, I have to start the same dance all over again. I don't say the F word about many things, but F Markdown.
- analog31 4y ago
  Indeed, I'm not in love with Markdown, but I think its acceptance is a sign that people are willing to give up the power of word processing in return for greater agility and portability, for lack of better terms. Probably my main uses of Markdown are for Jupyter notebooks and services that render it automatically such as GitHub.
scottcodie 4y ago
Some people think that writing might become different in the future because there is a machine that can automatically change sentences into proper English. All people would need to do is state their ideas instead of worrying about the structure and grammar. This comment was generated by GPT-3 given the following prompt: - Writing as we know it may be a thing in of the past - GPT-3 will automatically rewrite sentences into proper english - People will only need to articulate ideas instead of worry about structure and grammar
- Retric 4y ago
  Your prompts are much easier to read than that GPT-3 output.
  - scottcodie 4y ago
    Sure, but the point was that maybe we haven't hit Peak Word Doc.
- MontyCarloHall 4y ago
  >People will only need to articulate ideas instead of worry about structure and grammar Articulating and broadly structuring ideas is 99% of writing; comparatively very little time is spent refining grammar and low-level structure. (This is in contrast to programming, where high-level architecting and low-level implementing take roughly the same amount of time.) As a sibling poster points out, simply concatenating your three prompt sentences with a couple connective words (and a couple grammar fixes) already yields a well-written paragraph: “Writing as we know it may be a thing ~in~ of the past, [since] GPT-3 will automatically rewrite sentences into proper [E]nglish. [Thus,] people will only need to articulate ideas instead of worry[ing] about structure and grammar.”
  - hoseja 4y ago
    REALLY depends on the person. You and your friends might have the insane American essay-writing skills but I usually express my ideas in one or two terse sentences that are probably impossible to understand without having my brain.
hunter2_ 4y ago
> even the word processors (or whatever online editors) recognize Markdown tags and automatically apply formatting I think this feature of word processors can be considered a sibling to markdown, not a child. They each seek to turn plain text conventions (easily typed and understood) into proper formatting.

throwaway787544 4y ago

As a techie who writes a lot of docs, I kinda hate Markdown. I use Markdown for all my to-do lists and notes, but it sucks balls at conveying complex information in compact form and being readable. Any good docs written with it need touching up to be easier to read. With 10-20 additional formatting functions it would be decent. Meanwhile, most word processors have crappy UX and require training to figure out the mystic incantations to get the presentation right, and then screw it up at save/export time. We could definitely do better.

gumby 4y ago
It was intended to be a simple way to type a few html tags from a time when there weren’t many. The idea was if you needed more you’d switch to a “real” tool. Which is a long explanation for “your needs exceed the capabilities of that tool, and thus your dislike is rational.” The various extensions that add additional capabilities, such as the ones you describe always force me to consult documentation (which kind of defeats the purpose) and, as you note, they all suck balls.
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  As I commented some years ago regarding another tool: it's a simple tool, designed for simple tasks. A constant of my own career has been pushing tools well beyond their reasonable limits. That's usually an exceptionally reliable sign that I need to find a more appropriate tool. Markdown is a tool for conveniently generating rudimentary HTML quickly and with low overhead. Using tools such as Pandoc, this extends ot other markup languages. But the point remains that once you've pushed Markdown to its limits, you should choose a more appropriate tool. I lean toward LaTeX myself, though HTML is often useful as well.
thangalin 4y ago
My FOSS desktop text editor, KeenWrite[0], completely separates content from presentation. There are a handful of ConTeXt-based "themes"[1] that act as starting points for understanding the magic incantations of mapping XHTML into TeX. The XHTML is produced by converting Markdown documents. Producing a PDF file from TeX rarely messes up when exporting and the output is pleasing.[3] Mind you, TeX isn't all that user-friendly, so having the power/correctness of TeX with the "simplicity" of GUI-based word processors would be amazing. [0]: https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite [1]: https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite-themes https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite-themes [2]: https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite/blob/master/docs/screenshots.md https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite/blob/master/docs/scr...
forgotmypw17 4y ago
The reason I dislike Markdown is that it more often than not formats things I didn't want formatted at all, escaping the formatting tokens is not intuitive and inconsistent across different implementations, AND if I were to copy and paste the text, I have to start the same dance all over again. I don't say the F word about many things, but F Markdown.
analog31 4y ago
Indeed, I'm not in love with Markdown, but I think its acceptance is a sign that people are willing to give up the power of word processing in return for greater agility and portability, for lack of better terms. Probably my main uses of Markdown are for Jupyter notebooks and services that render it automatically such as GitHub.

scottcodie 4y ago

Some people think that writing might become different in the future because there is a machine that can automatically change sentences into proper English. All people would need to do is state their ideas instead of worrying about the structure and grammar. This comment was generated by GPT-3 given the following prompt: - Writing as we know it may be a thing in of the past - GPT-3 will automatically rewrite sentences into proper english - People will only need to articulate ideas instead of worry about structure and grammar

Retric 4y ago
Your prompts are much easier to read than that GPT-3 output.
- scottcodie 4y ago
  Sure, but the point was that maybe we haven't hit Peak Word Doc.
MontyCarloHall 4y ago
>People will only need to articulate ideas instead of worry about structure and grammar Articulating and broadly structuring ideas is 99% of writing; comparatively very little time is spent refining grammar and low-level structure. (This is in contrast to programming, where high-level architecting and low-level implementing take roughly the same amount of time.) As a sibling poster points out, simply concatenating your three prompt sentences with a couple connective words (and a couple grammar fixes) already yields a well-written paragraph: “Writing as we know it may be a thing ~in~ of the past, [since] GPT-3 will automatically rewrite sentences into proper [E]nglish. [Thus,] people will only need to articulate ideas instead of worry[ing] about structure and grammar.”
- hoseja 4y ago
  REALLY depends on the person. You and your friends might have the insane American essay-writing skills but I usually express my ideas in one or two terse sentences that are probably impossible to understand without having my brain.

hunter2_ 4y ago

> even the word processors (or whatever online editors) recognize Markdown tags and automatically apply formatting I think this feature of word processors can be considered a sibling to markdown, not a child. They each seek to turn plain text conventions (easily typed and understood) into proper formatting.