11 ms·

A Note to the Celsius Community

127 points by braingenious 4y ago

seaourfreed 4y ago
It says a lot that the CEO didn’t sign it with his name. That speaks volumes
- schemescape 4y ago
  In case anyone else is curious: the couple of pre-meltdown blog posts I glanced at were also signed “Celsius”.
nullc 4y ago
Time to begin cooling the mark out.
- shanusmagnus 4y ago
  First sighting (by me) of Goffman in the wild -- love!
etchalon 4y ago
"Who could have predicated the historically volatile market we operate within would turn out be volatile? Completely unprecedented!"
- JohnJamesRambo 4y ago
  Completely unprecedented four year boom bust cycle that is as regular as a metronome. https://stats.buybitcoinworldwide.com/monthly-rsi/ https://stats.buybitcoinworldwide.com/monthly-rsi/
- jrumbut 4y ago
  Not even that volatile honestly. Regular old stocks and bonds, even whole indices, have the kind of bad run Bitcoin, Ethereum, etc have. Making nothing out of something happens all the time in business, this wasn't even that. A Bitcoin is still worth an absurd amount of money. I'd have a lot more respect for this group if they just said "As you must know, anything paying 18% is risky and this risk didn't pay off. The money is gone, you may receive a few pennies in liquidation but we doubt it. Watch this space, we'll have another high risk/high reward gamble for you soon." Instead they are prolonging the misery for their customers (assuming they aren't about to make everyone whole) and solidifying the idea that this wasn't a risky tech business enabling tech and financial savvy people to gamble but is instead a bank that tried to exist outside of banking regulations.
  - happyopossum 4y ago
    > even whole indices, have the kind of bad run Bitcoin, Ethereum, etc have. No, not really. I can’t think of a time where the DJIA has lost 70% of its value, can you?
    - jrumbut 4y ago
      Not 70% exactly but it did lose 90% between 1929 and 1932 :) The universe of indices is much wider than DJIA too.
geeky4qwerty 4y ago
"Take the money and run."
hintymad 4y ago
Reading the title, I thought that some Americans finally got fed up by the imperial metrics. Boy I was wrong.
- lkrubner 4y ago
  But some of us are fed up by imperial metrics. So you weren't completely wrong.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
kareemsabri 4y ago
This gave no information.
- BLKNSLVR 4y ago
  Celsius have their lawyers / attorneys directing their communications due to the issue. Previously, the CEO has held weekly AMA sessions, so it's a sudden, stark change of tack, which speaks volumes as to the seriousness of the issue.
woodruffw 4y ago
I'd love to be a fly on the wall during the meeting with whatever attorney insisted they shut their traps: > We are pausing our Twitter Spaces and AMAs to focus on navigating these unprecedented challenges and seeking to fulfill our responsibilities to our community.
- CydeWeys 4y ago
  If it looks indistinguishable from rugging, it ain't good ...
- hackernudes 4y ago
  They haven't actually "opened their traps" since stopping withdrawals. They have given the same one line about stabilizing since the event. The last "AMA" was the CEO reading the same line (10 seconds).
- Analemma_ 4y ago
  Every high-flying startup and charismatic CEO wants to talk naturally and "with the people" at first, until they learn _why_ established business all talk in bland corp-speak: because talking like real people is fine in good times, but then when shit hits the fan it opens you up to a boatload of liability. Say nothing, admit nothing.
- jeffbee 4y ago
  I imagine it was along the lines of “It’s Shut The Fuck Up Friday”.
bowmessage 4y ago
Goxxed again
- memorable 4y ago
  goxx? like doxx?
  - gregstoll 4y ago
    I'm guessing like Mt. Gox, the former bitcoin exchange that halted trading and eventually shut down.
    - IgorPartola 4y ago
      And also prevented a whole lot of people from withdrawing a whole lot of money. Permanently. I know people like to romanticize 1920s but I didn’t personally want to live through a run on a “bank”.
      - robin_reala 4y ago
        Doesn’t have to be to 1920s. I got some savings out of Northern Rock before the whole thing came down in 2007. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Rock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Rock
    - 0x53 4y ago
      I bought a lot of bitcoins that were locked up in mt gox. The lawsuit has been ongoing in Japan for many years now. Every 6 months or so they say they are just about to pay out the claims.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
memorable 4y ago
For those who can't load the page: https://scribe.froth.zone/m/global-identity?redirectUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.celsius.network%2Fa-note-to-the-celsius-community-e5af1f5a7998 https://scribe.froth.zone/m/global-identity?redirectUrl=http...
- mastazi 4y ago
  Oh, so this is like Piped/Nitter/Bibliogram/Libreddit, but for Medium? I love it, thank you! PS more info here https://scribe.froth.zone/ https://scribe.froth.zone/
  - memorable 4y ago
    Its source code is at here btw https://sr.ht/~edwardloveall/scribe/ https://sr.ht/~edwardloveall/scribe/
    - mastazi 4y ago
      Thank you for the link. So this means that the official instance is https://scribe.rip/ https://scribe.rip/ and not the one I linked above. There is a list of instances here https://git.sr.ht/~edwardloveall/scribe/tree/HEAD/docs/instances.md https://git.sr.ht/~edwardloveall/scribe/tree/HEAD/docs/insta...
booleandilemma 4y ago
I love how the scammers don't even sign the "note" with their names, it's just: We are grateful for your continued support. Celsius What a joke.
- outside1234 4y ago
  They know this isn’t right - maybe even makes them liable for the money they are holding hostage
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  As the old saying goes, if all of us are responsible, none of us are individually responsible/ legally liable, right?
shmerl 4y ago
I thought it's for those who want the switch from Fahrenheit to Celsius to finally happen :)
- toxicFork 4y ago
  Yes, to allow us to switch please vote with your temperature coins in this smart contact.
maytc 4y ago
Iirc Celsius was margin called over the weekend and nothing about that was covered here… wow. https://www.google.com/amp/s/wccftech.com/the-much-battered-bitcoin-bounces-as-crypto-whales-fail-to-trigger-a-margin-call-for-celsius-held-wbtc/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/wccftech.com/the-much-battered-...
- schemescape 4y ago
  Did I miss something in that article? It says they deposited more collateral to avoid a margin call, and supposedly they won’t be called until BTC hits $13k.
  - marcell 4y ago
    You can view their BTC collateralized vault here: https://oasis.app/owner/0x87a67e7dc32fdc79853d780c6f516312b4a503b5 https://oasis.app/owner/0x87a67e7dc32fdc79853d780c6f516312b4... Their liquidation price is currently $13,604 USD/BTC. The liquidation is controlled by a protocol and not subject to human intervention.
  - adrr 4y ago
    Where did the collateral come from?
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
  That article says they weren’t and the new number for where that would happen has been lowered.
- BLKNSLVR 4y ago
  There's a theory 'out there' that there's a coordinated effort to damage Celsius due to Celsius' pulling out of a deal, with a group of other crypto enterprises, to work towards saving Terra/Luna during the early stages of the de-pegging (which resulted in the much publicised death spiral of loss of ~$100B of investment). Celsius pulled out of this deal to 'protect their community'. In fairness this action did protect both themselves and their community from any large losses due to the Terra/Luna incident, but it appears that other members of the group of crypto enterprises that did sustain larger losses are (understandably?) significantly salty at Celsius for pulling out of said deal. True or not, a healthy business can sustain a coordinated attack, and if Celsius doesn't survive then it just means they got their risk analysis wrong for such an edge case. Standard business decision fine-line walking between risk and reward falling off the wrong side. Maybe Celsius were the first one's to realise that attempting to save Terra/Luna was a fool's errand in the first place, or maybe Terra/Luna could have been saved if Celsius hadn't have pulled out. Given what's come out about Do Kwan since, I'd be guessing the former.
nimbius 4y ago
this isnt the only player to basically hit the pause button when things dont go their way in the unregulated crypto market; Solend is playing a similar game as well. Had this been, say, Robinhood, punishment would be swift and effective. As crypto has no regulatory framework or model by design, you can only place your hope in a benevolent oligarch who capitulates to the definition of the free market he espouses as well as the one he endures.
- jrumbut 4y ago
  The more useful part of the regulations aren't the punishments or even the mechanisms for recovering people's money, it's the guiderails to prevent loss of deposits from happening in the first place.
- eftychis 4y ago
  This is still commodity trading. There are rules and they apply. There are being investigated. I think you have a bit of an overestimation how swiftly Robinhood would be hit with anything. Recall it wasn't long ago when Robinhood received the ire of people, because they screwed their risk management (and by screwed I mean they didn't have any) and were unable to continue trading certain volatility securities. And thus, stopped the ability to buy said securities. What was the punishment it received? A day in front of the Congress shifting blame? I would be a bit more cynic when dealing with these topics.
dang 4y ago
Recent and related. Others? Celsius Is Crashing, and Crypto Investors Are Spooked - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31770195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31770195 - June 2022 (3 comments) Crypto Lender Celsius Hires Restructuring Lawyers After Account Freeze - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31747583 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31747583 - June 2022 (8 comments) Celsius Appears insolvent, and it's taking the whole crypto market with it - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31734660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31734660 - June 2022 (99 comments) Celsius Is Collapsing Here's Why - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31734067 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31734067 - June 2022 (8 comments) “Celsius has the reserves to meet obligations” (June 7, 2022) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31732471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31732471 - June 2022 (7 comments) Quebec pension manager and WestCap invest $400M in Celsius (2021) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31725987 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31725987 - June 2022 (8 comments) Bitcoin plunges below $24,000, Celsius Network temporarily halts all withdrawals - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31725373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31725373 - June 2022 (16 comments) $200B wiped off crypto market over the weekend - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31724940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31724940 - June 2022 (9 comments) Major crypto lender Celsius freezes withdrawals as markets tumble - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31723286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31723286 - June 2022 (403 comments) DeFi lending giant Celsius halts withdrawals - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31722536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31722536 - June 2022 (1 comment) Crypto Platform Celsius Pauses Withdrawals - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31720277 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31720277 - June 2022 (149 comments)
- gwbas1c 4y ago
  I entered the comments section to find a post like this. Thanks Dang!) (I honestly clicked on the link because I thought I was going to read a snarky post about Fahrenheit being the better system. Surprisingly, this is more interesting!)
marban 4y ago
Crypto projects really managed to kill the word community while pretending to reinvent it. As in “You’re all one big community of people not getting your money back”...
greatpostman 4y ago
What no one there ran a risk calculation on Bitcoin hitting 20k? This level is not that unlikely, this isn’t a black swan.
- dragontamer 4y ago
  IIRC, the Celsius problem isn't BTC, but some complex relationship between stETH, ETH, and ETH2. But yes, BTC dropping and scaring people into wanting their ETH tokens back should have been part of the calculus.
  - EdwardDiego 4y ago
    Real currency swaps or whatevs are complicated enough, funny money swaps feel like they're beyond the people running them.
  - lopatin 4y ago
    It seems to that it's still all about BTC. BTC drops, ETH drops as a result, industry suffers a liquidity crisis, stETH depegs, Celsius pauses withdrawals, and here we are? I don't understand all of this too well, so I can definitely be wrong, but I am under the impression that if BTC didn't drop, this DeFi party would still be going strong.
    - dragontamer 4y ago
      Its the cause-and-effect here that's important. Three Arrow Capital lost hundreds-of-millions of UST during the Lunacoin / UST implosion a month ago. The fallout of that is still being felt. Celsius was related to Three Arrow Capital somehow. Etc. etc. Honestly, I'm not yet sure how or why BTC is moving with them. But I don't think BTC is the source of this turbulence. I think a whole lot of shitcoins (Luna/UST in particular) was the first peg to fall. There's a direct link of Luna/UST to Three Arrow Capital, and a link from 3AC to Celsius. The link then extends to stETH, which extends to ETH, which is then correlated to BTC.
      - 4y ago
outside1234 4y ago
The only rational reaction to this can be mass selling when it opens back up
- ncallaway 4y ago
  > when it opens back up if
- hericium 4y ago
  Assuming there's anything to sell.
testbjjl 4y ago
This statement does not instill confidence in the business or “product.”Interested in seeing where this lands.
JimmyRuska 4y ago
They're not letting customers withdraw limited amounts. They're not letting customers pay to avoid liquidations using frozen assets. You cannot pay collateral using CEL anymore. They're allowing adding collateral to add liquidations, but make a note to review their terms of service, probably hinting at the part that says customers are unsecured creditors and it becomes their money on bankruptcy. Super shady. The last AMA before the withdrawal freeze was really pushing hard on the idea celsius is in great shape and being attacked by paid FUD'ers with an agenda. It's over for them. Even if they get the funds back, they've broken trust and everyone will withdraw. The only communication you can get will be written by lawyers until bankruptcy proceedings start. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyRO_W-utXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyRO_W-utXs
- kristopolous 4y ago
  > The last AMA before the withdrawal freeze was really pushing hard on the idea celsius is in great shape and being attacked by paid FUD'ers with an agenda That's what made me immediately drawdown my remaining balance (well ok I've got $30 in the still - who cares). Whenever any financial holding group is giving you confidence like that or assurances everything is fine they are telling you they're screwed. It should never even be a question. Think, say, Chase Bank or HSBC. Nobody even thinks about whether the bank has the liquidity for them to withdraw say $20,000. Once this becomes a subject of discussion, get the hell out immediately
- bowsamic 4y ago
  Unfortunately a huge amount of crypto hinges on "disproving FUD", but so often it is true. There is only one place where FUD is applied where it shouldn't: the FOMO of missing a bullish trend, and this FUD causes people to invest their entire life savings into crypto. I spent some time on a major crypto currency Discord, and the number of people I spoke to who have gone "all in" on crypto is actually astounding. Just no sense of risk aversion. People fear missing an opportunity to make money far more than they fear losing their money. Guess which happens? Then afterwards they realise the mistake they've made, and the suicide hotline numbers come out...
  - 4y ago
hericium 4y ago
Celsius [class action] community
ChrisRR 4y ago
Who could've expected the crypto bubble to go the way of the Beanie Babies bubble?
jmyeet 4y ago
This seems like a good time for a refresher on government protections because there seems to be a lot of confusion about this. FDIC [1] is a government insurance scheme on depositors' funds (up to a limit) with any FDIC-inssured bank of financial institution in case of insolvency. SIPC [2] is the equivalent for brokerages and protects your cash holdings and securities. Coinbase recently gave a warning [3] that crypto assets could be lost in the event of an insolvency. They also said they don't consider that remotely likely. But the point of that disclosure is that crypto is NOT an SIPC-protected asset. The crypto mantra of "not your keys, not your coins" [4] is showing itself to be true. I don't know what the outcome will be of anyone who has any assets in Celsius. It sounds like getting them out now may well be impossible but I haven't read this thoroughly so who knows? Maybe it's too late for Celsius account holders. But I'd strongly advise anyone who holds crypto with any custodian to move it to your own wallet for your own protection. [1]: https://www.fdic.gov/ https://www.fdic.gov/ [2]: https://www.sipc.org/for-investors/introduction https://www.sipc.org/for-investors/introduction [3]: https://cryptoslate.com/coinbase-bankruptcy-wording-triggers-warnings-to-move-crypto-off-exchanges/ https://cryptoslate.com/coinbase-bankruptcy-wording-triggers... [4]: https://medium.com/stakefish/not-your-keys-not-your-coins-fad3d43c2713 https://medium.com/stakefish/not-your-keys-not-your-coins-fa...
- justin66 4y ago
  There is also the NCUA, which insures deposits at federal credit unions. https://www.ncua.gov/ https://www.ncua.gov/
- razemio 4y ago
  Just an addition for non tech users. You should NOT hold your own keys, if you are not up to the task. Consider an exchange with a good record instead and within your "legal region". My recommendation would be Kraken or if you are based in Germany bitcoin.de. Both do not have a single incident which was major and have been doing it for years. The risk that you loose you coins because you are not able to secure your system is higher, then keeping them on an exchange. Using a hardware wallet is also a risk. You can loose it, forget your pin or store your backup pass phrase in an unsave / unstable location. For example in a excel sheet or WhatsApp text message to yourself.
ta3411 4y ago
What's the best action a Celcius account holder can do to mitigate risk? I am thinking of taking out a loan with them to at least withdraw out some cash at their expense.
- adrr 4y ago
  I’d talk to a lawyer. Probably could file an emergency injunction to release your holdings. I assume the large holders are already doing this. They haven’t filed for bankruptcy so it seems something a judge would grant.
puranjay 4y ago
The crypto market this cycle was peak evidence of the utter insanity that can happen when there is excess liquidity in the markets. It honestly makes a mockery of "money".
Animats 4y ago
Celsius is already being investigated by securities regulators in Texas, Alabama, Kentucky, New Jersey, and Washington.[1] [1] https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/exclusive-texas-securities-regulator-is-probing-celsius-account-freeze-official-2022-06-16/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/exclusive-texas-securitie...
Lapsa 4y ago
the "inventor of VOIP" burning bridges
theplumber 4y ago
How is that your funds are put on hold in the crypto finance? I thought that's what crypto was about..to own your money so that nobody can hold it for various reasons (i.e like PayPal). People puting funds into custodial wallets deserve to loose it all
blagie 4y ago
This seems like a legal-enough scheme: - Take people's money to form [insert random Crypto bank-like scheme] - Invest the money into high-risk investments - If investments don't pay off, declare bankruptcy. You were gambling with someone else's money - If investments do pay off, you're rich. You just need to return other people's money, but you keep the upside There are a ton of schemes like this in traditional investing, but limited to scamming "sophisticated investors" or "accredited investors," depending on the scheme. For crypto, it seems like regulation hasn't caught up, and companies scam random consumers. By "legal enough," I mean legal enough that scammers can convince themselves they won't land in prison.
- gbronner 4y ago
  This is the story of the 1980s S&L crisis in a nutshell. And the 1930s banking crisis and probably a bunch of others. Every generation has to see it once.
jshaqaw 4y ago
The crypto community managed to ignore every lesson from 2008 on cascading networks of financial instability. This is a market microstructure built on sand. We are still in the early innings of what the ultimate forced unwind will look like. The core of the 2008 crisis was at least based on housing which has some inherent downside value and could be resolved via the Fed as a liquidity provider of last resort. Crypto libertarians have been angry at the Fed ever since. Well let’s see how fun a liquidity crisis goes as a counterfactual in an environment with no Fed support. According to many posts here I’m not supposed to ever interact with a centralized entity but I should manage my own wallet and keep my keys printed on paper buried in the backyard. Yeah that sounds like a path to mass use case adoption of cryptocurrency. The only ones who are going to walk away from this intact are the lawyers who will be litigating the wreckage here for decades. So much of this industry happens in the grey area of the law which was fine when everyone was getting rich. Now you will have an angry bunch of populist bag holder voters looking — fairly or not - to blame someone else for losing the kids’ college fund in some dodgy levered alt coin scheme.

127 points by braingenious 4y ago

seaourfreed 4y ago

It says a lot that the CEO didn’t sign it with his name. That speaks volumes

schemescape 4y ago
In case anyone else is curious: the couple of pre-meltdown blog posts I glanced at were also signed “Celsius”.

nullc 4y ago

Time to begin cooling the mark out.

shanusmagnus 4y ago
First sighting (by me) of Goffman in the wild -- love!

etchalon 4y ago

"Who could have predicated the historically volatile market we operate within would turn out be volatile? Completely unprecedented!"

JohnJamesRambo 4y ago
Completely unprecedented four year boom bust cycle that is as regular as a metronome. https://stats.buybitcoinworldwide.com/monthly-rsi/ https://stats.buybitcoinworldwide.com/monthly-rsi/
jrumbut 4y ago
Not even that volatile honestly. Regular old stocks and bonds, even whole indices, have the kind of bad run Bitcoin, Ethereum, etc have. Making nothing out of something happens all the time in business, this wasn't even that. A Bitcoin is still worth an absurd amount of money. I'd have a lot more respect for this group if they just said "As you must know, anything paying 18% is risky and this risk didn't pay off. The money is gone, you may receive a few pennies in liquidation but we doubt it. Watch this space, we'll have another high risk/high reward gamble for you soon." Instead they are prolonging the misery for their customers (assuming they aren't about to make everyone whole) and solidifying the idea that this wasn't a risky tech business enabling tech and financial savvy people to gamble but is instead a bank that tried to exist outside of banking regulations.
- happyopossum 4y ago
  > even whole indices, have the kind of bad run Bitcoin, Ethereum, etc have. No, not really. I can’t think of a time where the DJIA has lost 70% of its value, can you?
  - jrumbut 4y ago
    Not 70% exactly but it did lose 90% between 1929 and 1932 :) The universe of indices is much wider than DJIA too.

geeky4qwerty 4y ago

"Take the money and run."

hintymad 4y ago

Reading the title, I thought that some Americans finally got fed up by the imperial metrics. Boy I was wrong.

lkrubner 4y ago
But some of us are fed up by imperial metrics. So you weren't completely wrong.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

kareemsabri 4y ago

This gave no information.

BLKNSLVR 4y ago
Celsius have their lawyers / attorneys directing their communications due to the issue. Previously, the CEO has held weekly AMA sessions, so it's a sudden, stark change of tack, which speaks volumes as to the seriousness of the issue.

woodruffw 4y ago

I'd love to be a fly on the wall during the meeting with whatever attorney insisted they shut their traps: > We are pausing our Twitter Spaces and AMAs to focus on navigating these unprecedented challenges and seeking to fulfill our responsibilities to our community.

CydeWeys 4y ago
If it looks indistinguishable from rugging, it ain't good ...
hackernudes 4y ago
They haven't actually "opened their traps" since stopping withdrawals. They have given the same one line about stabilizing since the event. The last "AMA" was the CEO reading the same line (10 seconds).
Analemma_ 4y ago
Every high-flying startup and charismatic CEO wants to talk naturally and "with the people" at first, until they learn _why_ established business all talk in bland corp-speak: because talking like real people is fine in good times, but then when shit hits the fan it opens you up to a boatload of liability. Say nothing, admit nothing.
jeffbee 4y ago
I imagine it was along the lines of “It’s Shut The Fuck Up Friday”.

bowmessage 4y ago

Goxxed again

memorable 4y ago
goxx? like doxx?
- gregstoll 4y ago
  I'm guessing like Mt. Gox, the former bitcoin exchange that halted trading and eventually shut down.
  - IgorPartola 4y ago
    And also prevented a whole lot of people from withdrawing a whole lot of money. Permanently. I know people like to romanticize 1920s but I didn’t personally want to live through a run on a “bank”.
    - robin_reala 4y ago
      Doesn’t have to be to 1920s. I got some savings out of Northern Rock before the whole thing came down in 2007. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Rock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Rock
  - 0x53 4y ago
    I bought a lot of bitcoins that were locked up in mt gox. The lawsuit has been ongoing in Japan for many years now. Every 6 months or so they say they are just about to pay out the claims.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

memorable 4y ago

For those who can't load the page: https://scribe.froth.zone/m/global-identity?redirectUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.celsius.network%2Fa-note-to-the-celsius-community-e5af1f5a7998 https://scribe.froth.zone/m/global-identity?redirectUrl=http...

mastazi 4y ago
Oh, so this is like Piped/Nitter/Bibliogram/Libreddit, but for Medium? I love it, thank you! PS more info here https://scribe.froth.zone/ https://scribe.froth.zone/
- memorable 4y ago
  Its source code is at here btw https://sr.ht/~edwardloveall/scribe/ https://sr.ht/~edwardloveall/scribe/
  - mastazi 4y ago
    Thank you for the link. So this means that the official instance is https://scribe.rip/ https://scribe.rip/ and not the one I linked above. There is a list of instances here https://git.sr.ht/~edwardloveall/scribe/tree/HEAD/docs/instances.md https://git.sr.ht/~edwardloveall/scribe/tree/HEAD/docs/insta...

booleandilemma 4y ago

I love how the scammers don't even sign the "note" with their names, it's just: We are grateful for your continued support. Celsius What a joke.

outside1234 4y ago
They know this isn’t right - maybe even makes them liable for the money they are holding hostage
EdwardDiego 4y ago
As the old saying goes, if all of us are responsible, none of us are individually responsible/ legally liable, right?

shmerl 4y ago

I thought it's for those who want the switch from Fahrenheit to Celsius to finally happen :)

toxicFork 4y ago
Yes, to allow us to switch please vote with your temperature coins in this smart contact.

maytc 4y ago

Iirc Celsius was margin called over the weekend and nothing about that was covered here… wow. https://www.google.com/amp/s/wccftech.com/the-much-battered-bitcoin-bounces-as-crypto-whales-fail-to-trigger-a-margin-call-for-celsius-held-wbtc/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/wccftech.com/the-much-battered-...

schemescape 4y ago
Did I miss something in that article? It says they deposited more collateral to avoid a margin call, and supposedly they won’t be called until BTC hits $13k.
- marcell 4y ago
  You can view their BTC collateralized vault here: https://oasis.app/owner/0x87a67e7dc32fdc79853d780c6f516312b4a503b5 https://oasis.app/owner/0x87a67e7dc32fdc79853d780c6f516312b4... Their liquidation price is currently $13,604 USD/BTC. The liquidation is controlled by a protocol and not subject to human intervention.
- adrr 4y ago
  Where did the collateral come from?
bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
That article says they weren’t and the new number for where that would happen has been lowered.
BLKNSLVR 4y ago
There's a theory 'out there' that there's a coordinated effort to damage Celsius due to Celsius' pulling out of a deal, with a group of other crypto enterprises, to work towards saving Terra/Luna during the early stages of the de-pegging (which resulted in the much publicised death spiral of loss of ~$100B of investment). Celsius pulled out of this deal to 'protect their community'. In fairness this action did protect both themselves and their community from any large losses due to the Terra/Luna incident, but it appears that other members of the group of crypto enterprises that did sustain larger losses are (understandably?) significantly salty at Celsius for pulling out of said deal. True or not, a healthy business can sustain a coordinated attack, and if Celsius doesn't survive then it just means they got their risk analysis wrong for such an edge case. Standard business decision fine-line walking between risk and reward falling off the wrong side. Maybe Celsius were the first one's to realise that attempting to save Terra/Luna was a fool's errand in the first place, or maybe Terra/Luna could have been saved if Celsius hadn't have pulled out. Given what's come out about Do Kwan since, I'd be guessing the former.

nimbius 4y ago

this isnt the only player to basically hit the pause button when things dont go their way in the unregulated crypto market; Solend is playing a similar game as well. Had this been, say, Robinhood, punishment would be swift and effective. As crypto has no regulatory framework or model by design, you can only place your hope in a benevolent oligarch who capitulates to the definition of the free market he espouses as well as the one he endures.

jrumbut 4y ago
The more useful part of the regulations aren't the punishments or even the mechanisms for recovering people's money, it's the guiderails to prevent loss of deposits from happening in the first place.
eftychis 4y ago
This is still commodity trading. There are rules and they apply. There are being investigated. I think you have a bit of an overestimation how swiftly Robinhood would be hit with anything. Recall it wasn't long ago when Robinhood received the ire of people, because they screwed their risk management (and by screwed I mean they didn't have any) and were unable to continue trading certain volatility securities. And thus, stopped the ability to buy said securities. What was the punishment it received? A day in front of the Congress shifting blame? I would be a bit more cynic when dealing with these topics.

dang 4y ago

Recent and related. Others? Celsius Is Crashing, and Crypto Investors Are Spooked - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31770195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31770195 - June 2022 (3 comments) Crypto Lender Celsius Hires Restructuring Lawyers After Account Freeze - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31747583 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31747583 - June 2022 (8 comments) Celsius Appears insolvent, and it's taking the whole crypto market with it - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31734660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31734660 - June 2022 (99 comments) Celsius Is Collapsing Here's Why - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31734067 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31734067 - June 2022 (8 comments) “Celsius has the reserves to meet obligations” (June 7, 2022) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31732471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31732471 - June 2022 (7 comments) Quebec pension manager and WestCap invest $400M in Celsius (2021) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31725987 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31725987 - June 2022 (8 comments) Bitcoin plunges below $24,000, Celsius Network temporarily halts all withdrawals - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31725373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31725373 - June 2022 (16 comments) $200B wiped off crypto market over the weekend - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31724940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31724940 - June 2022 (9 comments) Major crypto lender Celsius freezes withdrawals as markets tumble - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31723286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31723286 - June 2022 (403 comments) DeFi lending giant Celsius halts withdrawals - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31722536 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31722536 - June 2022 (1 comment) Crypto Platform Celsius Pauses Withdrawals - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31720277 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31720277 - June 2022 (149 comments)

gwbas1c 4y ago
I entered the comments section to find a post like this. Thanks Dang!) (I honestly clicked on the link because I thought I was going to read a snarky post about Fahrenheit being the better system. Surprisingly, this is more interesting!)

marban 4y ago

Crypto projects really managed to kill the word community while pretending to reinvent it. As in “You’re all one big community of people not getting your money back”...

greatpostman 4y ago

What no one there ran a risk calculation on Bitcoin hitting 20k? This level is not that unlikely, this isn’t a black swan.

dragontamer 4y ago
IIRC, the Celsius problem isn't BTC, but some complex relationship between stETH, ETH, and ETH2. But yes, BTC dropping and scaring people into wanting their ETH tokens back should have been part of the calculus.
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  Real currency swaps or whatevs are complicated enough, funny money swaps feel like they're beyond the people running them.
- lopatin 4y ago
  It seems to that it's still all about BTC. BTC drops, ETH drops as a result, industry suffers a liquidity crisis, stETH depegs, Celsius pauses withdrawals, and here we are? I don't understand all of this too well, so I can definitely be wrong, but I am under the impression that if BTC didn't drop, this DeFi party would still be going strong.
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    Its the cause-and-effect here that's important. Three Arrow Capital lost hundreds-of-millions of UST during the Lunacoin / UST implosion a month ago. The fallout of that is still being felt. Celsius was related to Three Arrow Capital somehow. Etc. etc. Honestly, I'm not yet sure how or why BTC is moving with them. But I don't think BTC is the source of this turbulence. I think a whole lot of shitcoins (Luna/UST in particular) was the first peg to fall. There's a direct link of Luna/UST to Three Arrow Capital, and a link from 3AC to Celsius. The link then extends to stETH, which extends to ETH, which is then correlated to BTC.
    - 4y ago

outside1234 4y ago

The only rational reaction to this can be mass selling when it opens back up

ncallaway 4y ago
> when it opens back up if
hericium 4y ago
Assuming there's anything to sell.

testbjjl 4y ago

This statement does not instill confidence in the business or “product.”Interested in seeing where this lands.

JimmyRuska 4y ago

They're not letting customers withdraw limited amounts. They're not letting customers pay to avoid liquidations using frozen assets. You cannot pay collateral using CEL anymore. They're allowing adding collateral to add liquidations, but make a note to review their terms of service, probably hinting at the part that says customers are unsecured creditors and it becomes their money on bankruptcy. Super shady. The last AMA before the withdrawal freeze was really pushing hard on the idea celsius is in great shape and being attacked by paid FUD'ers with an agenda. It's over for them. Even if they get the funds back, they've broken trust and everyone will withdraw. The only communication you can get will be written by lawyers until bankruptcy proceedings start. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyRO_W-utXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyRO_W-utXs

kristopolous 4y ago
> The last AMA before the withdrawal freeze was really pushing hard on the idea celsius is in great shape and being attacked by paid FUD'ers with an agenda That's what made me immediately drawdown my remaining balance (well ok I've got $30 in the still - who cares). Whenever any financial holding group is giving you confidence like that or assurances everything is fine they are telling you they're screwed. It should never even be a question. Think, say, Chase Bank or HSBC. Nobody even thinks about whether the bank has the liquidity for them to withdraw say $20,000. Once this becomes a subject of discussion, get the hell out immediately
bowsamic 4y ago
Unfortunately a huge amount of crypto hinges on "disproving FUD", but so often it is true. There is only one place where FUD is applied where it shouldn't: the FOMO of missing a bullish trend, and this FUD causes people to invest their entire life savings into crypto. I spent some time on a major crypto currency Discord, and the number of people I spoke to who have gone "all in" on crypto is actually astounding. Just no sense of risk aversion. People fear missing an opportunity to make money far more than they fear losing their money. Guess which happens? Then afterwards they realise the mistake they've made, and the suicide hotline numbers come out...
- 4y ago

hericium 4y ago

Celsius [class action] community

ChrisRR 4y ago

Who could've expected the crypto bubble to go the way of the Beanie Babies bubble?

jmyeet 4y ago

This seems like a good time for a refresher on government protections because there seems to be a lot of confusion about this. FDIC [1] is a government insurance scheme on depositors' funds (up to a limit) with any FDIC-inssured bank of financial institution in case of insolvency. SIPC [2] is the equivalent for brokerages and protects your cash holdings and securities. Coinbase recently gave a warning [3] that crypto assets could be lost in the event of an insolvency. They also said they don't consider that remotely likely. But the point of that disclosure is that crypto is NOT an SIPC-protected asset. The crypto mantra of "not your keys, not your coins" [4] is showing itself to be true. I don't know what the outcome will be of anyone who has any assets in Celsius. It sounds like getting them out now may well be impossible but I haven't read this thoroughly so who knows? Maybe it's too late for Celsius account holders. But I'd strongly advise anyone who holds crypto with any custodian to move it to your own wallet for your own protection. [1]: https://www.fdic.gov/ https://www.fdic.gov/ [2]: https://www.sipc.org/for-investors/introduction https://www.sipc.org/for-investors/introduction [3]: https://cryptoslate.com/coinbase-bankruptcy-wording-triggers-warnings-to-move-crypto-off-exchanges/ https://cryptoslate.com/coinbase-bankruptcy-wording-triggers... [4]: https://medium.com/stakefish/not-your-keys-not-your-coins-fad3d43c2713 https://medium.com/stakefish/not-your-keys-not-your-coins-fa...

justin66 4y ago
There is also the NCUA, which insures deposits at federal credit unions. https://www.ncua.gov/ https://www.ncua.gov/
razemio 4y ago
Just an addition for non tech users. You should NOT hold your own keys, if you are not up to the task. Consider an exchange with a good record instead and within your "legal region". My recommendation would be Kraken or if you are based in Germany bitcoin.de. Both do not have a single incident which was major and have been doing it for years. The risk that you loose you coins because you are not able to secure your system is higher, then keeping them on an exchange. Using a hardware wallet is also a risk. You can loose it, forget your pin or store your backup pass phrase in an unsave / unstable location. For example in a excel sheet or WhatsApp text message to yourself.

ta3411 4y ago

What's the best action a Celcius account holder can do to mitigate risk? I am thinking of taking out a loan with them to at least withdraw out some cash at their expense.

adrr 4y ago
I’d talk to a lawyer. Probably could file an emergency injunction to release your holdings. I assume the large holders are already doing this. They haven’t filed for bankruptcy so it seems something a judge would grant.

puranjay 4y ago

The crypto market this cycle was peak evidence of the utter insanity that can happen when there is excess liquidity in the markets. It honestly makes a mockery of "money".

Animats 4y ago

Celsius is already being investigated by securities regulators in Texas, Alabama, Kentucky, New Jersey, and Washington.[1] [1] https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/exclusive-texas-securities-regulator-is-probing-celsius-account-freeze-official-2022-06-16/ https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/exclusive-texas-securitie...

Lapsa 4y ago

the "inventor of VOIP" burning bridges

theplumber 4y ago

How is that your funds are put on hold in the crypto finance? I thought that's what crypto was about..to own your money so that nobody can hold it for various reasons (i.e like PayPal). People puting funds into custodial wallets deserve to loose it all

blagie 4y ago

This seems like a legal-enough scheme: - Take people's money to form [insert random Crypto bank-like scheme] - Invest the money into high-risk investments - If investments don't pay off, declare bankruptcy. You were gambling with someone else's money - If investments do pay off, you're rich. You just need to return other people's money, but you keep the upside There are a ton of schemes like this in traditional investing, but limited to scamming "sophisticated investors" or "accredited investors," depending on the scheme. For crypto, it seems like regulation hasn't caught up, and companies scam random consumers. By "legal enough," I mean legal enough that scammers can convince themselves they won't land in prison.

gbronner 4y ago
This is the story of the 1980s S&L crisis in a nutshell. And the 1930s banking crisis and probably a bunch of others. Every generation has to see it once.

jshaqaw 4y ago

The crypto community managed to ignore every lesson from 2008 on cascading networks of financial instability. This is a market microstructure built on sand. We are still in the early innings of what the ultimate forced unwind will look like. The core of the 2008 crisis was at least based on housing which has some inherent downside value and could be resolved via the Fed as a liquidity provider of last resort. Crypto libertarians have been angry at the Fed ever since. Well let’s see how fun a liquidity crisis goes as a counterfactual in an environment with no Fed support. According to many posts here I’m not supposed to ever interact with a centralized entity but I should manage my own wallet and keep my keys printed on paper buried in the backyard. Yeah that sounds like a path to mass use case adoption of cryptocurrency. The only ones who are going to walk away from this intact are the lawyers who will be litigating the wreckage here for decades. So much of this industry happens in the grey area of the law which was fine when everyone was getting rich. Now you will have an angry bunch of populist bag holder voters looking — fairly or not - to blame someone else for losing the kids’ college fund in some dodgy levered alt coin scheme.