11 ms·

‘The War on Music’ Review: Songs Without Listeners

51 points by tintinnabula 4y ago

peapicker 4y ago
Love your username. Connects with what I came here to say, which is that Arvo Pärt stands very much in opposition to the conclusions of this article. His compositional technique of tintinnabuli is beautiful and engaging and his many compositions continue to delight me since I found out about him five years ago.
mrwh 4y ago
'Igor Stravinsky’s revolting ballet “Rite of Spring,”' Er, what? If that's the author's opinion of one of the most thrilling pieces of music of the 20th century then I'll take the rest of their opinions with a pinch of salt.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  They’re just traditionalist > When first performed at the Théâtre des Champs-Élysées on 29 May 1913, the avant-garde nature of the music and choreography caused a sensation. Many have called the first-night reaction a "riot" or "near-riot", though this wording did not come about until reviews of later performances in 1924, over a decade later.
  - msla 4y ago
    Troll, more like.
torrance 4y ago
The same could be said of a lot of modern art: it is heavily influenced/driven by the critics, not the enjoyment/pleasure/surprise of a more general audience (who just don't "get" it). There's a feeling that a refined taste is by definition not a popular taste, or even a learned taste, but instead must be exclusive to art and music schools. I mean sure, I get that your atonal poem breaks with traditional tonality etc etc, and maybe on some intellectual level that is (was) a fresh move, but I don't _enjoy_ it, no matter how hard I've tried.
- _trampeltier 4y ago
  For me, from outside, it seems modern art is primary an investment. Of course artist create wonderful pictures, sculptures .. whatever these days. Also if you are an artist, you are self employed. So you are not just artist, you are CEO, CFO and everything too.
- zasdffaa 4y ago
  ...because it's about the person critiquing, not the art. Their image of themselves in the eyes of others, not the art. The art is simply a stepladder with which to raise themselves up. There are many honorable exceptions, and they are well worth talking to when you find them (you'll disagree but you will learn something) but many more who claim to like it because they fear what they might be seen as if they don't. I'll note that IME those who know most about art and genuinely love it are least willing to put up a facade.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  I'm not sure about this. I don't know anything about modern art or the critique of it, but every time I've been to a modern art exhibition I've been far more engaged than any national gallery. Looking at a crushed up car upturned on its side in the MAMAC at Nice was far more interesting and engaging than seeing 100 Baroque oil paintings. If you gave me the choice between seeing some weird modern art exhibition and some gallery of classical art it would take a lot to convince me to choose the latter. That said, when seen on a screen on a computer, I think it can be the opposite way around. I guess a lot of modern art only feels right in person, since many of them have 3D elements or are very contextual.
  - JackFr 4y ago
    > Looking at a crushed up car upturned on its side in the MAMAC at Nice was far more interesting and engaging than seeing 100 Baroque oil paintings. I couldn’t disagree more, but as it’s said, there is no accounting for taste. My problem - and I get that it’s my problem - is that I don’t see the crushed up car as art. It’s a gimmick, a sideshow, a lark. Within the visual arts I want to see something which both demonstrates the mastery of a technique and captures the artist’s understanding of the world, the human condition, etc. With the crushed up car, if I squint my eyes I get the second part, but as to the first part, the only mastery I see displayed is hucksterism.
josh_fyi 4y ago
See "Whither Tataria?" on AstralCodexTen. Why has the beautiful architecture of the past been replaced with concrete boxes? https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/whither-tartaria https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/whither-tartaria
WalterBright 4y ago
Classic movie music seems to be doing well - like the Star Wars music, and the Lord of the Rings music. The Game of Thrones theme music is very good, too. What I complain about is the decline of the trumpet. Modern music has completely abandoned it in favor of terrible synthesized horns. If you want to hear how incredibly good horn playing can be, Maurice Andre and Herb Alpert's horn playing are just sublime. Chicago was a horn band, and I like their tunes, but the horn skill was rather pedestrian.
- atoav 4y ago
  > Modern music has completely abandoned it in favor of terrible synthesized horns. Depends what style of music you are listening to I guess. Natural instruments will always retain their space, but not in pop music. Also there is really, really good synthie guys as well, but they do typically more than just imitate a horn like in the 80s.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Huh, I've never heard any synthetic horns that could "talk" like Herb Alpert. I played a trumpet as a kid, failed miserably at it, but came away with a great appreciation for people who could do it well. And Alpert is as good as it gets. He does far, far more than just play notes. He did pop music - chart toppers for all his albums.
- rob74 4y ago
  > Classic movie music seems to be doing well Yeah, probably because it's more bound to follow popular tastes than classical music meant to be played only in concert halls. I also like mostly anything by John Williams (Indiana Jones, Jurassic Park etc.), but I'm sure that would be too "pedestrian" for many classic music aficionados (quote from the article "Some of them, such as Korngold and Franz Waxman, were writing film music in Hollywood—a sure way to be dismissed by the anointed"). If you like the Game of Thrones soundtrack, you should also check out the Westworld soundtrack, which is also by Ramin Djawadi - because it's set on Earth, he got to play with reinterpreting pop/rock songs with classical instruments, e.g. "Black Hole Sun" on a (slightly out of tune) player piano or "Seven Nation Army" played with Indian instruments.
Semaphor 4y ago
> dissonant harmonies, inhuman rhythms and charmless sound patterns If one wanted to check those, what are some of those horrific modern compositions?
- nirse 4y ago
  here are some of the better known 'inhumane' pieces, all from the post-war European modernists, which I all like a lot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adfpLuk0-MY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adfpLuk0-MY (Klavierstueck ix by Stockhausen) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceXWHdFZdqA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceXWHdFZdqA (Pli selon pli by Boulez) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWlwCRlVh7M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWlwCRlVh7M (Athmosphere by Ligeti) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1XSmiGO3XE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1XSmiGO3XE (Sinfonia by Berio) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZazYFchLRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZazYFchLRI (Metastasis by Xenakis) And a more recent work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TKoN_HYJBg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TKoN_HYJBg (La commedia by Andriessen)
  - Semaphor 4y ago
    Having skipped through all of those, I do indeed not like most ;) La commedia was acceptable, but still too calm for me (my main genres are folk rock and metal, sometimes grindcore and noise). Sinfonia by Berio, though, is what I will now spend half an hour listening to, because the glimpses I got were amazing. Thanks!
- maze-le 4y ago
  Probably referring to Györgi Ligeti -- IMO one of the greatest composers of the 20th century. Or more generally to the post WWII Avant Garde: Ligeti, Boulez, Stockhausen, Berio. Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqrJmxy4q3A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqrJmxy4q3A About his technique: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropolyphony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropolyphony
  - cardiffspaceman 4y ago
    Excerpted in the 2001 score at the scene where the hominids confront the Monolith. I don't play or sing any music, so sometimes I'm in awe of a piece but I can't figure out how it works. At first I thought I was hearing something that required instruments with access to arbitrary pitches within their range, such as voice, violin, or trombone, but then I saw the flutes and that guess had to be rejected. This 'Requiem' is amazing. Edit to add: a technical problem on my end had me finally hearing the audio at about 5:00, not realizing how the piece had played out prior to that. In case anyone is puzzled.
pyrale 4y ago
I didn't really understand the premise of the article. Is the author talking about classical music, the genre that lasted about a century and got displaced by romanticism, or is he lumping all music done using traditional western instruments and musical ensembles in the same bag? If it's the former, then certainly someone should have told him that the genre passed its peak more than two centuries ago. If it's the latter, I'm surprised that he hasn't visited a theater recently, or any of the concert halls that are frequently sold out when they play popular successes such as Williams. To be honest, I suspect the real issue with the author is that his main line of business is to write about politics, and that this article is no exception.
- zarzavat 4y ago
  To be even more pedantic, it’s the Classical period that was displaced by the Romantic period. Classical music is the umbrella term that includes both, and all the other periods such as Baroque and Contemporary, etc. So there is no ambiguity in the article’s terminology.
  - pyrale 4y ago
    Ah, that would explain this. The nuance doesn't carry on in my language.
shannifin 4y ago
The article doesn't seem to mention (although perhaps the book does) the role technology likely plays in the story. Not that long ago (relatively speaking) if you wanted to hear music, someone had to be performing it. With the advent of records and radio broadcasts that sounded half-way decent, not only did you not have to go to a theater to hear orchestra music, you could listen to it all day long. That no doubt changed the desires and expectations of potential theater patrons. It also means if you're creating music with profits in mind, you're better off aiming at something other than the local symphony, such as accompaniment to other media (film, video games), or selling albums, concert tickets, etc. (If you want melodic, harmonic orchestral music more in the vein of "classical" music, I think it's today primarily found in film music, where there is a rich abundance of it.) In other words, technology changed the entire cultural experience and business of music. I think the advent of photography perhaps had similar effects in the visual arts, as perhaps did automobiles with architecture (although maybe that one's a bit more of a stretch). The internet is continuing to change it, and the advent of AI will likely continue to morph it further. ETA: Whenever I see twelve-tone music mentioned, I can't help but think of this classic commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACCAF04wSs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACCAF04wSs
- Earw0rm 4y ago
  And to any classical snobs on a "technology = bad" tangent, Perhaps consider that a concert hall filled with a couple of hundred instruments built to a standard tuning, the materials and techniques involved, and the sheet music notation system used to reproduce works and train the players, was absolute pinnacle, state-of-the-art technology in the early 18th century. As in, only the military had greater ability to deploy the latest materials, precision manufacturing techniques and information technology etc. at the scale required. The symphony orchestra and the music written for it was a product of the social and technological circumstances of its time, every bit as much as the LP & CD album format (which is also, sadly, looking increasingly obsolescent this last decade or so).
  - annyeonghada 4y ago
    Incredible how you thought of singling out the "classical snobs" who, for the most part, enjoy listening their operas on youtube and not all the critics snob who, in fact, enjoy tearing down everything that has a semblance of beauty and assonance. Maybe reflect on your animosity: Why are you so angry at "classical snobs"?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
neonate 4y ago
https://archive.ph/q7MmG https://archive.ph/q7MmG
azalemeth 4y ago
I completely and utterly disagree with the premise of this article. I am a second bass (a singer) and have been paid to sing a lot throughout my life. I was also an Organ Scholar while a student. If anything, I think we actually have a lot of really nice, lush contemporary choral music composers around and the likes of Eric Whitacre and, yes, even John Rutter have done a lot to put it back into harmony. There is a place for atonal, atemporal, allegorical music that requires a degree to listen to – but on my iTunes library while I am working in my "day job" isn't it. Here are some examples of mostly extant classical composers whose works that require either the human voice or few instruments beyond it. I think that these are both appreciated by classical music aficionados and music critics, and I have sung every one of them in a "recent" (mostly pre-covid) concert: – Ēriks Ešenvalds, a Latvian composer – e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh09QDoJMMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh09QDoJMMg – Tõnu Kõrvits, an Estonian composer – in this piece of music he echoes another famous Estonian composer, Cyrillus Kreek (d. 1962) – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yETJdX5r80U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yETJdX5r80U – Franz Biebl (died 2001), a German composer – e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41KBZsdC2dw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41KBZsdC2dw – Rihards Dubra, a(nother) lovely Latvian composer – e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28NzGYAvsoQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28NzGYAvsoQ – Vytautas Miškinis, an excellent Lithuanian composer (b. 1954) – e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBGoPpebOkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBGoPpebOkA – Andrej Makor, a Slovenian composer – e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYsMU_tc7uU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYsMU_tc7uU – Moses Hogan (died 2003), a composer from the southern US, where gospel stretches the definition of "classical" a little bit but to excellent results – e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b-d-JsQhzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b-d-JsQhzI – Vaclovas Augustinas, yet another excellent Lithuanian composer – I LOVE Tykus Tykus (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G8DZD7IFZs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G8DZD7IFZs) I think I'll stop here, but this is just a list of the lesser known contemporary famous classical composers in the variety of classical music that I like. The "actually famous" ones – Eric Whitacre, John Rutter, Arvo Pärt, Gabriel Jackson, Cecilla McDowell, Ola Gjeilo etc., or even people like Christopher Tin (who wrote the excellent Baba Yetu, which I think many HN readers / fans of Civ 4 might recall [1]) – have massive followings and, to my ear at least, compose interesting, harmonic and often frankly beautiful music. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCa8RxaOPW8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCa8RxaOPW8
winternett 4y ago
Right now most platforms only allow posts to be visible if they initially get a vast amount of likes. This only favors artists and personalities that are already very popular or rich enough to run paid promotion. It also explains why the actual best art and content for discovery has been at all time lows for a long time. There is so much amazing music out there that will never see the light of day and it's appalling. I've been sharing rare new music finds, but I don't want to pay to promote content I'm already working hard to curate. Sharing indie artists and content from friends and family now is more important than ever. Buying music is more important than ever, we need to realize this because it's the reasons why our favorite artists haven't been releasing anything for years too, the playing field is skewed, and the reward for hard work is nonexistent in music right now... Even popular and influencer-level artists are being ripped off by bad industry contracts, it threatens the entire future of the music industry, that's why they're pushing to make AI driven music popular... So they can hopefully eliminate needing artists. The ugly truth is that the best musicians can't be emulated, so all we'll have if they succeed is derivative soulless computer generated music in our future, from computer keyboards... Bot music...
- toofy 4y ago
  while i share much of your concerns regarding the obscene way in which corporations and their business destroys the music industry, > they're pushing to make AI driven music popular... So they can hopefully eliminate needing artists. do not mistake that statement with “the place for actual artists will disappear” because frankly, that just isn’t going to happen. ever. If you at all understand art, you’ll understand why this isn’t a concern.
  - winternett 4y ago
    It's not really a statement based on a serious threat to music talent, it's a statement on the motivational logic that is becoming more dominant within the non-musician controlled parts of the industry... There are several game makers and multimedia producers that are using AI generated music now though, and that is costing musicians opportunities that would make that brand of entertainment and experiences better. Even though human composed music will likely be better, the cost cuts often end up being taken more often over time as independent music and arts become more and more undervalued over time by algorithms.
codeulike 4y ago
Every concertgoer knows it: Most classical music written since 1945 ranges from boring to unendurable. What went wrong? Shame its behind a paywall, this is an interesting sounding article. Modern classical music needed to distinguish itself from popular music and the only way to do that was to go ultra snobbish. Like fashion and modern art and other areas with a high bullshit ratio, 'distinction' remains very important and increasingly the only way to achieve that it to head categorically in the opposite direction to 'popular'. Fashion is able to achieve 'distinction' but just making really expensive stuff, but you can't do that for music. You could try charging £1000 for a ticket to a concert but then you'd look silly when no-one turned up. Fashion doesn't have that problem because it they dont actually sell any £10000 dresses nobody knows. Damien Hirst can cut a cow in half and put it in a tank (admittedly, an impressive concept and execution of an idea that genuinely feels like art to me) and because its a single artifact it has cachet and can sell for $5m. Music doesn't have that option. The better way to do modern classical properly is to make music that sounds good, but only sounds good from about the third time you hear it. Experimental but still likeable. Thats really hard though so not many people try. Autechre can do this. Philip Glass also.
- seanhunter 4y ago
  This is a common opinion that just doesn’t stand up when you actually listen to music. Check out Arvo Part (eg “Cantus in memory of Benjamin Britain” or “Fur Alina” or “Tabula Rasa”) Mark Anthony Turnage eg “Coraline”. Judith Weir “We are Shadows” I could go on and on. There are lots of great 21st century and late 20th century works in the Classical tradition
  - TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
    Greatness is defined by extreme and unusual talent combined with lasting cultural impact. With respect to the composers you mentioned, their cultural impact has been tiny - in the sense that their influence on current and future composers and audiences is likely to be negligible. There's a point at which a medium becomes stale no matter what you do with it. No one declaims epic poetry from memory or writes complex medieval polyphonic vocal music now, and IMO orchestral/classical music is going the same way. Bach to (roughly) Berg's opera Wozzeck will keep being played, and perhaps Reich and Glass from the 60s/70s. But I'm not hearing much else that has broad non-niche impact and appeal.
LordHeini 4y ago
Music being always a child of its time needs to connect to the average people in order to be popular. The "classical" orchestra (if there is even such a thing) was the instrument of its day, nowadays the instruments changed. Music split into a gazillion genres ranging from gabber to black metal, from jazz to hiphop and so on... All of which have their audience. I would assume the average christian zealot of the renaissance just connects to Bach and his strict and highly religious music. So while Bach made stupidly awesome music the people of today are just not living in the renaissance anymore. The world being much more diverse and culturally fragmented is represented in the music as well and the "classical" music is just a fragment like everything else. Nobody cares about the snobbish critic and their idiotic views, lots of art derided by critics became a classic and a lot they praised got forgotten. As someone who grew up with techno i could listen to Venetian Snares or Aphex Twin all day but i think the likes of Stockhausen are just annoying and dull.
gravelc 4y ago
I'm not a classical music aficionado, but Jonny Greenwood's Phantom Thread soundtrack is pretty great as background music to write some code to. Anyway, music changes. To me, someone very obviously classically influenced like Igorrr (Gautier Serre) is a genius. Classical music has morphed into something new and interesting, which is the way it should be.
Gatsky 4y ago
I think it is the case that a particular art form can peak. Post-peak, there isn't much to do. A walk through the Louvre will show you that sculpture peaked some time ago for example. Pickled sharks and giant nipples aren't signs of recovery. Classical music suffers from this phenomenon I think. There are just some stunning orchestral works out there which aren't ever going to sound dated. Nothing is going to make Mahler's 9th symphony irrelevant or incomprehensible in the next couple of centuries. There isn't enough oxygen in these rarefied atmospheres for more masterworks to breathe.
- xoac 4y ago
  Hegel would say Art itself peaked with Greek sculpture but it’s kind of for a different reason. I agree with your overall point but I think sculpture might be a bad example in the context of this article. Is it possible that post-peak you kind of lose the audience? I.e. it becomes just for nerds. I suspect you see the same thing for e.g. classic rock. Noone sane listens to 2022 “classic rock”.
tkgally 4y ago
“Recently there was given the overture to Beethoven’s opera Fidelio, and all impartial musicians and music lovers were in perfect agreement that never was anything as incoherent, shrill, chaotic and ear-splitting produced in music. The most piercing dissonances clash in a really atrocious harmony, and a few puny ideas only increase the disagreeable and deafening effect.” (August von Kotzebue, Der Freimütige, Vienna, September 11, 1806) “Beethoven’s compositions more and more assume the character of studied eccentricity. He does not write much now, but most of what he produces is so impenetrably obscure in design and so full of unaccountable and often repulsive harmonies, that he puzzles the critic as much as he perplexes the performer.” (The Harmonicon, London, April 1824) “Beethoven mystified his passages by a new treatment of the resolution of discords, which can only be described in words by the term, ‘resolution by ellipsis,’ or the omission of the chord upon which the discordant notes should descend.... Many of his passages also appear confused and unintelligible, by a singular freedom in the use of diatonic discords or discords of transition; many instances appear of passages by contrary motion, each carrying their harmonies with them.” (Musical World, London, March 1836) Source: Lexicon of Musical Invective: Critical Assaults on Composers Since Beethoven’s Time by Nicolas Slonimsky (1953)
- Nemrod67 4y ago
  There is a case to be made for the cyclical nature of criticism, though we have to keep in mind the possibility of a cycle being really bad too... (as we surely forgot a lot of them already).
- buchoo 4y ago
  You are quoting critics negatively assessing a popular composer, whereas the article talks about how music now praised by critics largely fails to engage the public. (Note that Fidelio did indeed receive an unenthusiastic reception in 1806 and only became successful when performed after a thorough revision in 1814.)
- coldtea 4y ago
  Yeah, so? The quotations, are critics close to the "release" date of the work. Let's say it was "jarring" back then as a fresh listen. In our case, it's been 60+ years, and in some cases 80 or 100 from unlistenable "contemporary classical" music and listeners didn't come around as they did with Beethoven.
kstenerud 4y ago
It's right up there with modern architecture: The "great" ones build for ego, and those who build for mere humans are usually marginalized. Only rarely do actual greatness and humanity cross paths, for example Frank Lloyd Wright or Heitor Villa-Lobos.
dr_faustus 4y ago
In my opinion, it's not a really fruitful discussion. The main problem is that people seem to think that the quality of music is somehow related to the musical form which is nonsense. For the first 1600 years of the common era (the year of the first opera performance), there was no "l'art pour l'art" music in the modern sense. Major works of the time before that had no "catchy" melodies and could probaby be passed of as 20th century music, e.g. Messe de Nostre Dame by Guillaume de Machaut [1] and let's not forget that after that, 99% of the music produced for the next 300 years was mostly inconsequential just like 99% of the music produced today is inconsequential. When talking about classical music, we are talking about maybe 50 actual people that were unusually gifted. JS Bach improvised 3 voiced fugues on the spot on practically any given theme. Mozart reportedly memorized many-voiced chorals from one hearing. Beethoven composed his greatest music while being almost completely deaf. All those greats were writing in the popular forms of their days which constantly changed. There were not that many great "pure" fugues after Bach, not that many great piano sonatas after Beethoven. So why should there be so many great symphonies or string quartets now? Every form has it's time and it's place. There will be a couple of great composers with similar skill as the "classics" left from the 20th century but just as all the great composers before them, they will have taken the popular forms of their time and enriched them with layers upon layers of musical complexity to be discovered (and enjoyed!!) by the generations to come. I believe McCartney/Lennon will be one example of that. Maybe Radiohead. It's usually for the future generations to decide. I noticed, one typical trait of great composers is natural skill which often means unbelievable speed and quality at the same time. Bach produced a 20 minute cantata (i.e. a 20 minute opera) EVER WEEK for YEARS (while still doing lots of other stuff). Schubert produced lieder like a machine, many of them the best of the genre. One has to contend with the fact, that there are only a couple of people in a generation with that ability and it probably cannot be taught and is to a high degree inate. As can be seen in many documentaries now, the Beatles came up with some of the musically best songs of the 20th century in hours or few days. So lets enjoy the great works in the forms of the past and the great works in the forms of the present and lets not try to force past forms on todays audiences. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47JdUI_PhE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47JdUI_PhE
gttalbot 4y ago
See Frank Zappa's autobiography for an excellent discussion of this very thing.
ezhux 4y ago
So who is waging that war on music? Critics? Composers? Was there a grand conspiracy at some point in time when the composers got together and decided to alienate all audiences and start writing incomprehensible unlistenable atonal music? What is the ultimate reason for creating art that the average "consumer" doesn't enjoy? Maybe it's because creators want to push boundaries, but the "consumers" don't educate themselves? Or should popularity and enjoyability be the only thing that decides if new art is good? Then really, just stick to Spotify algorithm and get more of the same, over and over. My mother teaches music history and theory at the music academy. I remember the first I played Daft Punk "Around the World" to her. Her reaction was "who could listen to this???"
- cousin_it 4y ago
  > Maybe it's because creators want to push boundaries, but the "consumers" don't educate themselves? I think an artist's job is to translate beauty from their imagination to other people's perception. If an artist wants to "push boundaries" and complains that people don't "educate themselves", that just means they're a bad translator - a bad artist.
rceDia 4y ago
Who knew that a ballet production actually caused a riot! The premier of Stravinsky's "Rites of Spring" in Paris 1913. https://www.udiscovermusic.com/classical-features/stravinsky-rite-of-spring/ https://www.udiscovermusic.com/classical-features/stravinsky...
8jef 4y ago
Masterful prog rock from late 60s to late 80s was the modern equivalent to so-called classical music. After recordings and broadcasting deeply changed everything musical. Photography did the same exact thing to painting. Richard Wright and Rick Wakeman were the new Beethoven or Mozart or whoever famed composer. A most interesting question from an old fart: who are the _actual_ classic composers? Hope not k-pop.
mikkergp 4y ago
As someone who doesn't feel a particular attachment to popular culture (I don't hate pop music, I love a good hook, but I don't always find popularity to be a good signal for anything) articles like this are strange to me. In some ways, I think popularity in art is a signal of mediocrity. I like the Beatles fine, and sure I see the genius, but the music is also very inoffensive. But yeah, like many have said. New 'Classical' music just isn't going to find an audience. It's either too polarizing or not for the 'kids these days' But with the overwhelming quantity of music available, niche music is great. I love Steve Reich, I imagine my dad would hate it. It's also an amusing trope in depictions of brooding artists that popularity cheapens a work. I guess I just think social acceptance or virality is a weird measure of the quality of a work, even though in some ways it's all we have.

51 points by tintinnabula 4y ago

Love your username. Connects with what I came here to say, which is that Arvo Pärt stands very much in opposition to the conclusions of this article. His compositional technique of tintinnabuli is beautiful and engaging and his many compositions continue to delight me since I found out about him five years ago.

mrwh 4y ago

'Igor Stravinsky’s revolting ballet “Rite of Spring,”' Er, what? If that's the author's opinion of one of the most thrilling pieces of music of the 20th century then I'll take the rest of their opinions with a pinch of salt.

Apocryphon 4y ago
They’re just traditionalist > When first performed at the Théâtre des Champs-Élysées on 29 May 1913, the avant-garde nature of the music and choreography caused a sensation. Many have called the first-night reaction a "riot" or "near-riot", though this wording did not come about until reviews of later performances in 1924, over a decade later.
- msla 4y ago
  Troll, more like.

torrance 4y ago

The same could be said of a lot of modern art: it is heavily influenced/driven by the critics, not the enjoyment/pleasure/surprise of a more general audience (who just don't "get" it). There's a feeling that a refined taste is by definition not a popular taste, or even a learned taste, but instead must be exclusive to art and music schools. I mean sure, I get that your atonal poem breaks with traditional tonality etc etc, and maybe on some intellectual level that is (was) a fresh move, but I don't _enjoy_ it, no matter how hard I've tried.

_trampeltier 4y ago
For me, from outside, it seems modern art is primary an investment. Of course artist create wonderful pictures, sculptures .. whatever these days. Also if you are an artist, you are self employed. So you are not just artist, you are CEO, CFO and everything too.
zasdffaa 4y ago
...because it's about the person critiquing, not the art. Their image of themselves in the eyes of others, not the art. The art is simply a stepladder with which to raise themselves up. There are many honorable exceptions, and they are well worth talking to when you find them (you'll disagree but you will learn something) but many more who claim to like it because they fear what they might be seen as if they don't. I'll note that IME those who know most about art and genuinely love it are least willing to put up a facade.
bowsamic 4y ago
I'm not sure about this. I don't know anything about modern art or the critique of it, but every time I've been to a modern art exhibition I've been far more engaged than any national gallery. Looking at a crushed up car upturned on its side in the MAMAC at Nice was far more interesting and engaging than seeing 100 Baroque oil paintings. If you gave me the choice between seeing some weird modern art exhibition and some gallery of classical art it would take a lot to convince me to choose the latter. That said, when seen on a screen on a computer, I think it can be the opposite way around. I guess a lot of modern art only feels right in person, since many of them have 3D elements or are very contextual.
- JackFr 4y ago
  > Looking at a crushed up car upturned on its side in the MAMAC at Nice was far more interesting and engaging than seeing 100 Baroque oil paintings. I couldn’t disagree more, but as it’s said, there is no accounting for taste. My problem - and I get that it’s my problem - is that I don’t see the crushed up car as art. It’s a gimmick, a sideshow, a lark. Within the visual arts I want to see something which both demonstrates the mastery of a technique and captures the artist’s understanding of the world, the human condition, etc. With the crushed up car, if I squint my eyes I get the second part, but as to the first part, the only mastery I see displayed is hucksterism.

josh_fyi 4y ago

See "Whither Tataria?" on AstralCodexTen. Why has the beautiful architecture of the past been replaced with concrete boxes? https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/whither-tartaria https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/whither-tartaria

WalterBright 4y ago

Classic movie music seems to be doing well - like the Star Wars music, and the Lord of the Rings music. The Game of Thrones theme music is very good, too. What I complain about is the decline of the trumpet. Modern music has completely abandoned it in favor of terrible synthesized horns. If you want to hear how incredibly good horn playing can be, Maurice Andre and Herb Alpert's horn playing are just sublime. Chicago was a horn band, and I like their tunes, but the horn skill was rather pedestrian.

atoav 4y ago
> Modern music has completely abandoned it in favor of terrible synthesized horns. Depends what style of music you are listening to I guess. Natural instruments will always retain their space, but not in pop music. Also there is really, really good synthie guys as well, but they do typically more than just imitate a horn like in the 80s.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Huh, I've never heard any synthetic horns that could "talk" like Herb Alpert. I played a trumpet as a kid, failed miserably at it, but came away with a great appreciation for people who could do it well. And Alpert is as good as it gets. He does far, far more than just play notes. He did pop music - chart toppers for all his albums.
rob74 4y ago
> Classic movie music seems to be doing well Yeah, probably because it's more bound to follow popular tastes than classical music meant to be played only in concert halls. I also like mostly anything by John Williams (Indiana Jones, Jurassic Park etc.), but I'm sure that would be too "pedestrian" for many classic music aficionados (quote from the article "Some of them, such as Korngold and Franz Waxman, were writing film music in Hollywood—a sure way to be dismissed by the anointed"). If you like the Game of Thrones soundtrack, you should also check out the Westworld soundtrack, which is also by Ramin Djawadi - because it's set on Earth, he got to play with reinterpreting pop/rock songs with classical instruments, e.g. "Black Hole Sun" on a (slightly out of tune) player piano or "Seven Nation Army" played with Indian instruments.

Semaphor 4y ago

> dissonant harmonies, inhuman rhythms and charmless sound patterns If one wanted to check those, what are some of those horrific modern compositions?

nirse 4y ago
here are some of the better known 'inhumane' pieces, all from the post-war European modernists, which I all like a lot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adfpLuk0-MY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adfpLuk0-MY (Klavierstueck ix by Stockhausen) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceXWHdFZdqA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceXWHdFZdqA (Pli selon pli by Boulez) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWlwCRlVh7M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWlwCRlVh7M (Athmosphere by Ligeti) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1XSmiGO3XE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1XSmiGO3XE (Sinfonia by Berio) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZazYFchLRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZazYFchLRI (Metastasis by Xenakis) And a more recent work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TKoN_HYJBg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TKoN_HYJBg (La commedia by Andriessen)
- Semaphor 4y ago
  Having skipped through all of those, I do indeed not like most ;) La commedia was acceptable, but still too calm for me (my main genres are folk rock and metal, sometimes grindcore and noise). Sinfonia by Berio, though, is what I will now spend half an hour listening to, because the glimpses I got were amazing. Thanks!
maze-le 4y ago
Probably referring to Györgi Ligeti -- IMO one of the greatest composers of the 20th century. Or more generally to the post WWII Avant Garde: Ligeti, Boulez, Stockhausen, Berio. Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqrJmxy4q3A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqrJmxy4q3A About his technique: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropolyphony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropolyphony
- cardiffspaceman 4y ago
  Excerpted in the 2001 score at the scene where the hominids confront the Monolith. I don't play or sing any music, so sometimes I'm in awe of a piece but I can't figure out how it works. At first I thought I was hearing something that required instruments with access to arbitrary pitches within their range, such as voice, violin, or trombone, but then I saw the flutes and that guess had to be rejected. This 'Requiem' is amazing. Edit to add: a technical problem on my end had me finally hearing the audio at about 5:00, not realizing how the piece had played out prior to that. In case anyone is puzzled.

pyrale 4y ago

I didn't really understand the premise of the article. Is the author talking about classical music, the genre that lasted about a century and got displaced by romanticism, or is he lumping all music done using traditional western instruments and musical ensembles in the same bag? If it's the former, then certainly someone should have told him that the genre passed its peak more than two centuries ago. If it's the latter, I'm surprised that he hasn't visited a theater recently, or any of the concert halls that are frequently sold out when they play popular successes such as Williams. To be honest, I suspect the real issue with the author is that his main line of business is to write about politics, and that this article is no exception.

zarzavat 4y ago
To be even more pedantic, it’s the Classical period that was displaced by the Romantic period. Classical music is the umbrella term that includes both, and all the other periods such as Baroque and Contemporary, etc. So there is no ambiguity in the article’s terminology.
- pyrale 4y ago
  Ah, that would explain this. The nuance doesn't carry on in my language.

shannifin 4y ago

The article doesn't seem to mention (although perhaps the book does) the role technology likely plays in the story. Not that long ago (relatively speaking) if you wanted to hear music, someone had to be performing it. With the advent of records and radio broadcasts that sounded half-way decent, not only did you not have to go to a theater to hear orchestra music, you could listen to it all day long. That no doubt changed the desires and expectations of potential theater patrons. It also means if you're creating music with profits in mind, you're better off aiming at something other than the local symphony, such as accompaniment to other media (film, video games), or selling albums, concert tickets, etc. (If you want melodic, harmonic orchestral music more in the vein of "classical" music, I think it's today primarily found in film music, where there is a rich abundance of it.) In other words, technology changed the entire cultural experience and business of music. I think the advent of photography perhaps had similar effects in the visual arts, as perhaps did automobiles with architecture (although maybe that one's a bit more of a stretch). The internet is continuing to change it, and the advent of AI will likely continue to morph it further. ETA: Whenever I see twelve-tone music mentioned, I can't help but think of this classic commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACCAF04wSs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACCAF04wSs

Earw0rm 4y ago
And to any classical snobs on a "technology = bad" tangent, Perhaps consider that a concert hall filled with a couple of hundred instruments built to a standard tuning, the materials and techniques involved, and the sheet music notation system used to reproduce works and train the players, was absolute pinnacle, state-of-the-art technology in the early 18th century. As in, only the military had greater ability to deploy the latest materials, precision manufacturing techniques and information technology etc. at the scale required. The symphony orchestra and the music written for it was a product of the social and technological circumstances of its time, every bit as much as the LP & CD album format (which is also, sadly, looking increasingly obsolescent this last decade or so).
- annyeonghada 4y ago
  Incredible how you thought of singling out the "classical snobs" who, for the most part, enjoy listening their operas on youtube and not all the critics snob who, in fact, enjoy tearing down everything that has a semblance of beauty and assonance. Maybe reflect on your animosity: Why are you so angry at "classical snobs"?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

neonate 4y ago

https://archive.ph/q7MmG https://archive.ph/q7MmG

azalemeth 4y ago

I completely and utterly disagree with the premise of this article. I am a second bass (a singer) and have been paid to sing a lot throughout my life. I was also an Organ Scholar while a student. If anything, I think we actually have a lot of really nice, lush contemporary choral music composers around and the likes of Eric Whitacre and, yes, even John Rutter have done a lot to put it back into harmony. There is a place for atonal, atemporal, allegorical music that requires a degree to listen to – but on my iTunes library while I am working in my "day job" isn't it. Here are some examples of mostly extant classical composers whose works that require either the human voice or few instruments beyond it. I think that these are both appreciated by classical music aficionados and music critics, and I have sung every one of them in a "recent" (mostly pre-covid) concert: – Ēriks Ešenvalds, a Latvian composer – e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh09QDoJMMg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh09QDoJMMg – Tõnu Kõrvits, an Estonian composer – in this piece of music he echoes another famous Estonian composer, Cyrillus Kreek (d. 1962) – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yETJdX5r80U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yETJdX5r80U – Franz Biebl (died 2001), a German composer – e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41KBZsdC2dw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41KBZsdC2dw – Rihards Dubra, a(nother) lovely Latvian composer – e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28NzGYAvsoQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28NzGYAvsoQ – Vytautas Miškinis, an excellent Lithuanian composer (b. 1954) – e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBGoPpebOkA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBGoPpebOkA – Andrej Makor, a Slovenian composer – e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYsMU_tc7uU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYsMU_tc7uU – Moses Hogan (died 2003), a composer from the southern US, where gospel stretches the definition of "classical" a little bit but to excellent results – e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b-d-JsQhzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b-d-JsQhzI – Vaclovas Augustinas, yet another excellent Lithuanian composer – I LOVE Tykus Tykus (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G8DZD7IFZs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G8DZD7IFZs) I think I'll stop here, but this is just a list of the lesser known contemporary famous classical composers in the variety of classical music that I like. The "actually famous" ones – Eric Whitacre, John Rutter, Arvo Pärt, Gabriel Jackson, Cecilla McDowell, Ola Gjeilo etc., or even people like Christopher Tin (who wrote the excellent Baba Yetu, which I think many HN readers / fans of Civ 4 might recall [1]) – have massive followings and, to my ear at least, compose interesting, harmonic and often frankly beautiful music. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCa8RxaOPW8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCa8RxaOPW8

winternett 4y ago

Right now most platforms only allow posts to be visible if they initially get a vast amount of likes. This only favors artists and personalities that are already very popular or rich enough to run paid promotion. It also explains why the actual best art and content for discovery has been at all time lows for a long time. There is so much amazing music out there that will never see the light of day and it's appalling. I've been sharing rare new music finds, but I don't want to pay to promote content I'm already working hard to curate. Sharing indie artists and content from friends and family now is more important than ever. Buying music is more important than ever, we need to realize this because it's the reasons why our favorite artists haven't been releasing anything for years too, the playing field is skewed, and the reward for hard work is nonexistent in music right now... Even popular and influencer-level artists are being ripped off by bad industry contracts, it threatens the entire future of the music industry, that's why they're pushing to make AI driven music popular... So they can hopefully eliminate needing artists. The ugly truth is that the best musicians can't be emulated, so all we'll have if they succeed is derivative soulless computer generated music in our future, from computer keyboards... Bot music...

toofy 4y ago
while i share much of your concerns regarding the obscene way in which corporations and their business destroys the music industry, > they're pushing to make AI driven music popular... So they can hopefully eliminate needing artists. do not mistake that statement with “the place for actual artists will disappear” because frankly, that just isn’t going to happen. ever. If you at all understand art, you’ll understand why this isn’t a concern.
- winternett 4y ago
  It's not really a statement based on a serious threat to music talent, it's a statement on the motivational logic that is becoming more dominant within the non-musician controlled parts of the industry... There are several game makers and multimedia producers that are using AI generated music now though, and that is costing musicians opportunities that would make that brand of entertainment and experiences better. Even though human composed music will likely be better, the cost cuts often end up being taken more often over time as independent music and arts become more and more undervalued over time by algorithms.

codeulike 4y ago

Every concertgoer knows it: Most classical music written since 1945 ranges from boring to unendurable. What went wrong? Shame its behind a paywall, this is an interesting sounding article. Modern classical music needed to distinguish itself from popular music and the only way to do that was to go ultra snobbish. Like fashion and modern art and other areas with a high bullshit ratio, 'distinction' remains very important and increasingly the only way to achieve that it to head categorically in the opposite direction to 'popular'. Fashion is able to achieve 'distinction' but just making really expensive stuff, but you can't do that for music. You could try charging £1000 for a ticket to a concert but then you'd look silly when no-one turned up. Fashion doesn't have that problem because it they dont actually sell any £10000 dresses nobody knows. Damien Hirst can cut a cow in half and put it in a tank (admittedly, an impressive concept and execution of an idea that genuinely feels like art to me) and because its a single artifact it has cachet and can sell for $5m. Music doesn't have that option. The better way to do modern classical properly is to make music that sounds good, but only sounds good from about the third time you hear it. Experimental but still likeable. Thats really hard though so not many people try. Autechre can do this. Philip Glass also.

seanhunter 4y ago
This is a common opinion that just doesn’t stand up when you actually listen to music. Check out Arvo Part (eg “Cantus in memory of Benjamin Britain” or “Fur Alina” or “Tabula Rasa”) Mark Anthony Turnage eg “Coraline”. Judith Weir “We are Shadows” I could go on and on. There are lots of great 21st century and late 20th century works in the Classical tradition
- TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
  Greatness is defined by extreme and unusual talent combined with lasting cultural impact. With respect to the composers you mentioned, their cultural impact has been tiny - in the sense that their influence on current and future composers and audiences is likely to be negligible. There's a point at which a medium becomes stale no matter what you do with it. No one declaims epic poetry from memory or writes complex medieval polyphonic vocal music now, and IMO orchestral/classical music is going the same way. Bach to (roughly) Berg's opera Wozzeck will keep being played, and perhaps Reich and Glass from the 60s/70s. But I'm not hearing much else that has broad non-niche impact and appeal.

LordHeini 4y ago

Music being always a child of its time needs to connect to the average people in order to be popular. The "classical" orchestra (if there is even such a thing) was the instrument of its day, nowadays the instruments changed. Music split into a gazillion genres ranging from gabber to black metal, from jazz to hiphop and so on... All of which have their audience. I would assume the average christian zealot of the renaissance just connects to Bach and his strict and highly religious music. So while Bach made stupidly awesome music the people of today are just not living in the renaissance anymore. The world being much more diverse and culturally fragmented is represented in the music as well and the "classical" music is just a fragment like everything else. Nobody cares about the snobbish critic and their idiotic views, lots of art derided by critics became a classic and a lot they praised got forgotten. As someone who grew up with techno i could listen to Venetian Snares or Aphex Twin all day but i think the likes of Stockhausen are just annoying and dull.

gravelc 4y ago

I'm not a classical music aficionado, but Jonny Greenwood's Phantom Thread soundtrack is pretty great as background music to write some code to. Anyway, music changes. To me, someone very obviously classically influenced like Igorrr (Gautier Serre) is a genius. Classical music has morphed into something new and interesting, which is the way it should be.

Gatsky 4y ago

I think it is the case that a particular art form can peak. Post-peak, there isn't much to do. A walk through the Louvre will show you that sculpture peaked some time ago for example. Pickled sharks and giant nipples aren't signs of recovery. Classical music suffers from this phenomenon I think. There are just some stunning orchestral works out there which aren't ever going to sound dated. Nothing is going to make Mahler's 9th symphony irrelevant or incomprehensible in the next couple of centuries. There isn't enough oxygen in these rarefied atmospheres for more masterworks to breathe.

xoac 4y ago
Hegel would say Art itself peaked with Greek sculpture but it’s kind of for a different reason. I agree with your overall point but I think sculpture might be a bad example in the context of this article. Is it possible that post-peak you kind of lose the audience? I.e. it becomes just for nerds. I suspect you see the same thing for e.g. classic rock. Noone sane listens to 2022 “classic rock”.

tkgally 4y ago

“Recently there was given the overture to Beethoven’s opera Fidelio, and all impartial musicians and music lovers were in perfect agreement that never was anything as incoherent, shrill, chaotic and ear-splitting produced in music. The most piercing dissonances clash in a really atrocious harmony, and a few puny ideas only increase the disagreeable and deafening effect.” (August von Kotzebue, Der Freimütige, Vienna, September 11, 1806) “Beethoven’s compositions more and more assume the character of studied eccentricity. He does not write much now, but most of what he produces is so impenetrably obscure in design and so full of unaccountable and often repulsive harmonies, that he puzzles the critic as much as he perplexes the performer.” (The Harmonicon, London, April 1824) “Beethoven mystified his passages by a new treatment of the resolution of discords, which can only be described in words by the term, ‘resolution by ellipsis,’ or the omission of the chord upon which the discordant notes should descend.... Many of his passages also appear confused and unintelligible, by a singular freedom in the use of diatonic discords or discords of transition; many instances appear of passages by contrary motion, each carrying their harmonies with them.” (Musical World, London, March 1836) Source: Lexicon of Musical Invective: Critical Assaults on Composers Since Beethoven’s Time by Nicolas Slonimsky (1953)

Nemrod67 4y ago
There is a case to be made for the cyclical nature of criticism, though we have to keep in mind the possibility of a cycle being really bad too... (as we surely forgot a lot of them already).
buchoo 4y ago
You are quoting critics negatively assessing a popular composer, whereas the article talks about how music now praised by critics largely fails to engage the public. (Note that Fidelio did indeed receive an unenthusiastic reception in 1806 and only became successful when performed after a thorough revision in 1814.)
coldtea 4y ago
Yeah, so? The quotations, are critics close to the "release" date of the work. Let's say it was "jarring" back then as a fresh listen. In our case, it's been 60+ years, and in some cases 80 or 100 from unlistenable "contemporary classical" music and listeners didn't come around as they did with Beethoven.

kstenerud 4y ago

It's right up there with modern architecture: The "great" ones build for ego, and those who build for mere humans are usually marginalized. Only rarely do actual greatness and humanity cross paths, for example Frank Lloyd Wright or Heitor Villa-Lobos.

dr_faustus 4y ago

In my opinion, it's not a really fruitful discussion. The main problem is that people seem to think that the quality of music is somehow related to the musical form which is nonsense. For the first 1600 years of the common era (the year of the first opera performance), there was no "l'art pour l'art" music in the modern sense. Major works of the time before that had no "catchy" melodies and could probaby be passed of as 20th century music, e.g. Messe de Nostre Dame by Guillaume de Machaut [1] and let's not forget that after that, 99% of the music produced for the next 300 years was mostly inconsequential just like 99% of the music produced today is inconsequential. When talking about classical music, we are talking about maybe 50 actual people that were unusually gifted. JS Bach improvised 3 voiced fugues on the spot on practically any given theme. Mozart reportedly memorized many-voiced chorals from one hearing. Beethoven composed his greatest music while being almost completely deaf. All those greats were writing in the popular forms of their days which constantly changed. There were not that many great "pure" fugues after Bach, not that many great piano sonatas after Beethoven. So why should there be so many great symphonies or string quartets now? Every form has it's time and it's place. There will be a couple of great composers with similar skill as the "classics" left from the 20th century but just as all the great composers before them, they will have taken the popular forms of their time and enriched them with layers upon layers of musical complexity to be discovered (and enjoyed!!) by the generations to come. I believe McCartney/Lennon will be one example of that. Maybe Radiohead. It's usually for the future generations to decide. I noticed, one typical trait of great composers is natural skill which often means unbelievable speed and quality at the same time. Bach produced a 20 minute cantata (i.e. a 20 minute opera) EVER WEEK for YEARS (while still doing lots of other stuff). Schubert produced lieder like a machine, many of them the best of the genre. One has to contend with the fact, that there are only a couple of people in a generation with that ability and it probably cannot be taught and is to a high degree inate. As can be seen in many documentaries now, the Beatles came up with some of the musically best songs of the 20th century in hours or few days. So lets enjoy the great works in the forms of the past and the great works in the forms of the present and lets not try to force past forms on todays audiences. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47JdUI_PhE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y47JdUI_PhE

gttalbot 4y ago

See Frank Zappa's autobiography for an excellent discussion of this very thing.

ezhux 4y ago

So who is waging that war on music? Critics? Composers? Was there a grand conspiracy at some point in time when the composers got together and decided to alienate all audiences and start writing incomprehensible unlistenable atonal music? What is the ultimate reason for creating art that the average "consumer" doesn't enjoy? Maybe it's because creators want to push boundaries, but the "consumers" don't educate themselves? Or should popularity and enjoyability be the only thing that decides if new art is good? Then really, just stick to Spotify algorithm and get more of the same, over and over. My mother teaches music history and theory at the music academy. I remember the first I played Daft Punk "Around the World" to her. Her reaction was "who could listen to this???"

cousin_it 4y ago
> Maybe it's because creators want to push boundaries, but the "consumers" don't educate themselves? I think an artist's job is to translate beauty from their imagination to other people's perception. If an artist wants to "push boundaries" and complains that people don't "educate themselves", that just means they're a bad translator - a bad artist.

rceDia 4y ago

Who knew that a ballet production actually caused a riot! The premier of Stravinsky's "Rites of Spring" in Paris 1913. https://www.udiscovermusic.com/classical-features/stravinsky-rite-of-spring/ https://www.udiscovermusic.com/classical-features/stravinsky...

8jef 4y ago

Masterful prog rock from late 60s to late 80s was the modern equivalent to so-called classical music. After recordings and broadcasting deeply changed everything musical. Photography did the same exact thing to painting. Richard Wright and Rick Wakeman were the new Beethoven or Mozart or whoever famed composer. A most interesting question from an old fart: who are the _actual_ classic composers? Hope not k-pop.

mikkergp 4y ago

As someone who doesn't feel a particular attachment to popular culture (I don't hate pop music, I love a good hook, but I don't always find popularity to be a good signal for anything) articles like this are strange to me. In some ways, I think popularity in art is a signal of mediocrity. I like the Beatles fine, and sure I see the genius, but the music is also very inoffensive. But yeah, like many have said. New 'Classical' music just isn't going to find an audience. It's either too polarizing or not for the 'kids these days' But with the overwhelming quantity of music available, niche music is great. I love Steve Reich, I imagine my dad would hate it. It's also an amusing trope in depictions of brooding artists that popularity cheapens a work. I guess I just think social acceptance or virality is a weird measure of the quality of a work, even though in some ways it's all we have.