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Wow way to mislead with graphics! This is where your first plot comes from: https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local https://ourworldindata.org/f

Wow way to mislead with graphics! This is where your first plot comes from: https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local And it doesn't say that transport etc is a miniscule part in CO2 production. It says that of all emissions from farming, transport is a small part compared to land use change. But you present it like it's emissions from farming compared to all other emissions. Way to go! > That's a lie you've been told. Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements). Plants are enough but you need B12 supplements? What for?

myshpa 4y ago
I don't intend to mislead anyone. > transport is a small part compared to land use change Transport is a small part not only to land use change, but also to farming, animal feed and processing. See the graph. > Plants are enough but you need B12 supplements? What for? B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argument is, that we can go directly to the source (e.g. bacteria) and make supplements instead from vegan sources, free of harm & suffering.
- cheese_goddess 4y ago
  > See the graph. I saw the graph. You're using it wrong. > B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argument is, that we can go directly to the source (e.g. bacteria) and make supplements instead from vegan sources, free of harm & suffering. So plants are not enough?
  - myshpa 4y ago
    > You're using it wrong. You like cheese, I get it. Care to elaborate? > So plants are not enough? Yes, they are. See my other comment to you in this discussion (I've even listed some numbers for you). But I've got a hunch not even that will be enough for you. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI - Dairy is scary !
    - cheese_goddess 4y ago
      I saw your other comment. Here's some more links for you: Serum concentrations of vitamin B12 and folate in British male omnivores, vegetarians and vegans: results from a cross-sectional analysis of the EPIC-Oxford cohort study > Vegans have lower vitamin B12 concentrations, but higher folate concentrations, than vegetarians and omnivores. Half of the vegans were categorized as vitamin B12 deficient and would be expected to have a higher risk of developing clinical symptoms related to vitamin B12 deficiency. https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inline https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inl... The prevalence of cobalamin deficiency among vegetarians assessed by serum vitamin B12: a review of literature > Higher deficiency prevalence was reported in vegans than in other vegetarians. Thus, with few exceptions, the reviewed studies documented relatively high deficiency prevalence among vegetarians. Vegans who do not ingest vitamin B12 supplements were found to be at especially high risk. Vegetarians, especially vegans, should give strong consideration to the use of vitamin B12 supplements to ensure adequate vitamin B12 intake. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24667752/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24667752/ Vitamin B12 Sources and Bioavailability > Most of the edible blue-green algae (cyanobacteria) used for human supplements predominately contain pseudovitamin B12, which is inactive in humans. The edible cyanobacteria are not suitable for use as vitamin B12 sources, especially in vegans. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3181/0703-MR-67 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3181/0703-MR-67 Bonus study: Subacute Combined Degeneration of the Spinal Cord in Vegetarians: Vegetarian's Myelopathy https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/internalmedicine/45/10/45_10_705/_article https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/internalmedicine/45/10/... Nice, huh? > Dairy is scary But malnutrition is scarier. > Yes, they are. So why do you need supplements? Better read that Cognitive Dissonance link carefully. Or this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-contradiction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-contradiction
      - myshpa 4y ago
        > (me) Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements). > (you) But malnutrition is scarier. I said that plants & B12 vegan supplements are enough. What I meant is (and was not maybe clear enough), that we as humans do not need to rely on animals, even if we'd be supplementing our diet with some pills (IMHO B12 supplement from vegan sources is enough). You seem to be equating veganism with malnutrition. American Dietetic Association: "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 NHS: "A vegetarian or vegan diet can be suitable for everyone, regardless of their age." https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/healthy-eating-vegetarians-vegans/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/healthy-eating-vegetar... British Dietetic Association: "As a result of the memorandum the BDA and The Vegan Society will: - Work together to show that it is possible to follow a well-planned, plant-based, vegan friendly diet that supports healthy living in people of all ages, and during pregnancy and breastfeeding." https://www.bda.uk.com/about/workwithus/bda_and_vegan_society_mou https://www.bda.uk.com/about/workwithus/bda_and_vegan_societ...

myshpa 4y ago

I don't intend to mislead anyone. > transport is a small part compared to land use change Transport is a small part not only to land use change, but also to farming, animal feed and processing. See the graph. > Plants are enough but you need B12 supplements? What for? B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argument is, that we can go directly to the source (e.g. bacteria) and make supplements instead from vegan sources, free of harm & suffering.

cheese_goddess 4y ago
> See the graph. I saw the graph. You're using it wrong. > B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argument is, that we can go directly to the source (e.g. bacteria) and make supplements instead from vegan sources, free of harm & suffering. So plants are not enough?
- myshpa 4y ago
  > You're using it wrong. You like cheese, I get it. Care to elaborate? > So plants are not enough? Yes, they are. See my other comment to you in this discussion (I've even listed some numbers for you). But I've got a hunch not even that will be enough for you. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI - Dairy is scary !
  - cheese_goddess 4y ago
    I saw your other comment. Here's some more links for you: Serum concentrations of vitamin B12 and folate in British male omnivores, vegetarians and vegans: results from a cross-sectional analysis of the EPIC-Oxford cohort study > Vegans have lower vitamin B12 concentrations, but higher folate concentrations, than vegetarians and omnivores. Half of the vegans were categorized as vitamin B12 deficient and would be expected to have a higher risk of developing clinical symptoms related to vitamin B12 deficiency. https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inline https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inl... The prevalence of cobalamin deficiency among vegetarians assessed by serum vitamin B12: a review of literature > Higher deficiency prevalence was reported in vegans than in other vegetarians. Thus, with few exceptions, the reviewed studies documented relatively high deficiency prevalence among vegetarians. Vegans who do not ingest vitamin B12 supplements were found to be at especially high risk. Vegetarians, especially vegans, should give strong consideration to the use of vitamin B12 supplements to ensure adequate vitamin B12 intake. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24667752/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24667752/ Vitamin B12 Sources and Bioavailability > Most of the edible blue-green algae (cyanobacteria) used for human supplements predominately contain pseudovitamin B12, which is inactive in humans. The edible cyanobacteria are not suitable for use as vitamin B12 sources, especially in vegans. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3181/0703-MR-67 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3181/0703-MR-67 Bonus study: Subacute Combined Degeneration of the Spinal Cord in Vegetarians: Vegetarian's Myelopathy https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/internalmedicine/45/10/45_10_705/_article https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/internalmedicine/45/10/... Nice, huh? > Dairy is scary But malnutrition is scarier. > Yes, they are. So why do you need supplements? Better read that Cognitive Dissonance link carefully. Or this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-contradiction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-contradiction
    - myshpa 4y ago
      > (me) Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements). > (you) But malnutrition is scarier. I said that plants & B12 vegan supplements are enough. What I meant is (and was not maybe clear enough), that we as humans do not need to rely on animals, even if we'd be supplementing our diet with some pills (IMHO B12 supplement from vegan sources is enough). You seem to be equating veganism with malnutrition. American Dietetic Association: "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864 NHS: "A vegetarian or vegan diet can be suitable for everyone, regardless of their age." https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/healthy-eating-vegetarians-vegans/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/healthy-eating-vegetar... British Dietetic Association: "As a result of the memorandum the BDA and The Vegan Society will: - Work together to show that it is possible to follow a well-planned, plant-based, vegan friendly diet that supports healthy living in people of all ages, and during pregnancy and breastfeeding." https://www.bda.uk.com/about/workwithus/bda_and_vegan_society_mou https://www.bda.uk.com/about/workwithus/bda_and_vegan_societ...