7 ms·

I had some considerations of getting into white hat hacking. I'd have enough motivation to become somewhat proficient in a few years,maybe even very good in a d

I had some considerations of getting into white hat hacking. I'd have enough motivation to become somewhat proficient in a few years,maybe even very good in a decade. But then I look at the rewards for vulnerability discovery and I think what the hell??? If I'd spend years honing my skills and someone would offer me a few grand for something that could potentially cost them millions,I don't think I'd manage not to sell it for the highest bidder. This is like a gig economy but for infosec.

foepys 4y ago
> for something that could potentially cost them millions You can be very sure that if a piracy case went to court, Sony would claim to suffer billions in damages.
- HideousKojima 4y ago
  Not sure on that, the Nintendo v Team Xecuter case ended up with $10 million in damages for selling Switch piracy mods/tools https://torrentfreak.com/gary-bowser-agrees-to-pay-10-million-in-piracy-damages-to-nintendo-211207/ https://torrentfreak.com/gary-bowser-agrees-to-pay-10-millio...
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    I despise Team Xecuter for a number of reasons, but these two exploits aren't necessarily comparable. The Playstation vuln in question would allow people to create pirated Blu-Ray disks that work as-expected on vanilla PS5 models. TX created a custom firmware that required hardmodding your Switch to persist. Nintendo couldn't really wring out TX without proving that their damages went beyond just the owners of hacked Switch consoles, which it certainly didn't. In Sony's case, they could probably sue pretty hard if people started selling pirated or counterfeit PS5 games, since every PS5 owner is effected. IANAL, but I think you have to keep the scope of the damages in consideration.
    - eftychis 4y ago
      By every owner affected you mean, there is small to no moat and everyone can use it if they so wish. It is not like PS5 owners are going to be upset for having a straightforward way to run games -- e.g. make their own Blu-ray copies etc. Edit: To clarify: that this is valued for/by Sony at only 20k is beyond me. But absolutely that valuation should be admissible in court in my opinion. On the other hand, this number tells me to never submit a bug bounty for the money -- at least to some companies. It is simply not worth most of the time/most of the contexts. Write a paper/publication of some short and use it to get a good job that pays you salaried for more -- if you have already one just publish them immediately with a ping to the sec team. If they want to fix these fine, otherwise... they can pre-pay you to report them to them under contract for a good amount of money.
    - ornornor 4y ago
      > allow people to create pirated Blu-Ray disks that work as-expected on vanilla PS5 models. I don’t understand why there isn’t an industry of selling pirate copies of official games. What I mean is buying an official copy of the game, “image” the disc, and press 1:1 copies for cost + a couple dollars. Why didn’t that happen? Are there technical issues preventing this from working? I can’t think it’s a matter of cost, BRD can’t cost that much to make at scale.
      - nchi3 4y ago
        Not sure how it works exactly (I'm sure someone else in this thread can fill in!), but that hasn't ever been possible on consoles. Not even the very first Playstation which used CDs would accept copies out of the box.
        ornornor 4y ago
        I think PS1 CDs had data written in an area (early?) consumer CDR writers couldn’t reach. I don’t know about PS4/5 games.
- flak48 4y ago
  In an alternate universe, perhaps the fact that Sony valued this exploit at just 20k would work against them in a piracy case
sjtgraham 4y ago
I expect to get downvoted to oblivion for this but whatever. Your comment completely lacks morals. Selling something to the highest bidder implies you have no hesitation about selling exploits to criminals. You don’t have to do research on any given platform. If you don’t like the terms of their bounty, find something else to play with. If you are skilled enough to find something like this you will have no problem finding very highly paid jobs.
- highwaylights 4y ago
  But the poster is explicitly saying that’s why they have not done this?
- b112 4y ago
  The parent was merely stating the payout is wrong, vs other avenues. An example, if you find a bag of cash, typical finders fee is 10%. Insurance companies, others, often offer this. Meanwhile, Sony is kicking maybe .01% "cash saved" for this vulnerability.
  - LadyCailin 4y ago
    Or perhaps Sony only considers piracy to cause about 200k of damages in actual fact.
    - lupire 4y ago
      200k in damages after recovering funds from lawsuits.
- tetris11 4y ago
  If it was an ethical open source initiative that ultimately benefits the world the one that was being targeted, then yes I'd agree. But if it's a company deeply entrenched in dark patterns, willingly destroys small competition with anticompetitive practices, and trample on basic user rights for triple dollar signs - then, really, who cares? To what detriment to humanity would there be if OP sold to the highest bidder?
duxup 4y ago
Most white hat security researchers seem driven as much by curiosity and just a general passion as rewards. When I worked with someone who was a point of contact for outside security researchers it seemed for many were just happy to get their name in the release notes. And I’m not sure if you’re selling that you’re a white hat researcher anymore…
wombat-man 4y ago
Yeah, it would be super tempting. But law or lawyers might find you if you’re not careful

foepys 4y ago

> for something that could potentially cost them millions You can be very sure that if a piracy case went to court, Sony would claim to suffer billions in damages.

HideousKojima 4y ago
Not sure on that, the Nintendo v Team Xecuter case ended up with $10 million in damages for selling Switch piracy mods/tools https://torrentfreak.com/gary-bowser-agrees-to-pay-10-million-in-piracy-damages-to-nintendo-211207/ https://torrentfreak.com/gary-bowser-agrees-to-pay-10-millio...
- smoldesu 4y ago
  I despise Team Xecuter for a number of reasons, but these two exploits aren't necessarily comparable. The Playstation vuln in question would allow people to create pirated Blu-Ray disks that work as-expected on vanilla PS5 models. TX created a custom firmware that required hardmodding your Switch to persist. Nintendo couldn't really wring out TX without proving that their damages went beyond just the owners of hacked Switch consoles, which it certainly didn't. In Sony's case, they could probably sue pretty hard if people started selling pirated or counterfeit PS5 games, since every PS5 owner is effected. IANAL, but I think you have to keep the scope of the damages in consideration.
  - eftychis 4y ago
    By every owner affected you mean, there is small to no moat and everyone can use it if they so wish. It is not like PS5 owners are going to be upset for having a straightforward way to run games -- e.g. make their own Blu-ray copies etc. Edit: To clarify: that this is valued for/by Sony at only 20k is beyond me. But absolutely that valuation should be admissible in court in my opinion. On the other hand, this number tells me to never submit a bug bounty for the money -- at least to some companies. It is simply not worth most of the time/most of the contexts. Write a paper/publication of some short and use it to get a good job that pays you salaried for more -- if you have already one just publish them immediately with a ping to the sec team. If they want to fix these fine, otherwise... they can pre-pay you to report them to them under contract for a good amount of money.
  - ornornor 4y ago
    > allow people to create pirated Blu-Ray disks that work as-expected on vanilla PS5 models. I don’t understand why there isn’t an industry of selling pirate copies of official games. What I mean is buying an official copy of the game, “image” the disc, and press 1:1 copies for cost + a couple dollars. Why didn’t that happen? Are there technical issues preventing this from working? I can’t think it’s a matter of cost, BRD can’t cost that much to make at scale.
    - nchi3 4y ago
      Not sure how it works exactly (I'm sure someone else in this thread can fill in!), but that hasn't ever been possible on consoles. Not even the very first Playstation which used CDs would accept copies out of the box.
      - ornornor 4y ago
        I think PS1 CDs had data written in an area (early?) consumer CDR writers couldn’t reach. I don’t know about PS4/5 games.
flak48 4y ago
In an alternate universe, perhaps the fact that Sony valued this exploit at just 20k would work against them in a piracy case

sjtgraham 4y ago

I expect to get downvoted to oblivion for this but whatever. Your comment completely lacks morals. Selling something to the highest bidder implies you have no hesitation about selling exploits to criminals. You don’t have to do research on any given platform. If you don’t like the terms of their bounty, find something else to play with. If you are skilled enough to find something like this you will have no problem finding very highly paid jobs.

highwaylights 4y ago
But the poster is explicitly saying that’s why they have not done this?
b112 4y ago
The parent was merely stating the payout is wrong, vs other avenues. An example, if you find a bag of cash, typical finders fee is 10%. Insurance companies, others, often offer this. Meanwhile, Sony is kicking maybe .01% "cash saved" for this vulnerability.
- LadyCailin 4y ago
  Or perhaps Sony only considers piracy to cause about 200k of damages in actual fact.
  - lupire 4y ago
    200k in damages after recovering funds from lawsuits.
tetris11 4y ago
If it was an ethical open source initiative that ultimately benefits the world the one that was being targeted, then yes I'd agree. But if it's a company deeply entrenched in dark patterns, willingly destroys small competition with anticompetitive practices, and trample on basic user rights for triple dollar signs - then, really, who cares? To what detriment to humanity would there be if OP sold to the highest bidder?

duxup 4y ago

Most white hat security researchers seem driven as much by curiosity and just a general passion as rewards. When I worked with someone who was a point of contact for outside security researchers it seemed for many were just happy to get their name in the release notes. And I’m not sure if you’re selling that you’re a white hat researcher anymore…

wombat-man 4y ago

Yeah, it would be super tempting. But law or lawyers might find you if you’re not careful