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Kids are legislatively forbidden from riding motorcycles. Just let them do AM or another form of certification for small bikes that get to 50ish kmh. It's not l

Kids are legislatively forbidden from riding motorcycles. Just let them do AM or another form of certification for small bikes that get to 50ish kmh. It's not like they can't get to 50 with a bicycle. I'd even argue it's safer since it's easier to wear protective gear when you don't have to pedal. Affording it isn't a real issue either. (i)Second hand motorcycles can be had for really cheap since they're treated as toys in the western world. I just opened up the listings for where I live (smallish town in Germany) and there are 44 ads for working bikes under 1000$ in 25km radius of me. Some are even proper 600cc+ machines. (ii)16 brand new bikes in that same area can be bought for under 2000$. (iii)Public transport. Storage: Small bikes can be manhandled into an apartment if it's about long term storage. Short term, just park it on the street like a normal person. Put a tracker on it if you're worried. I get that it improves over time but the short term effects are what determines whether whoever implements it remains in power long enough to see that. And I'd argue still that motorcycles are way faster and therefore better at decreasing congestion than bicycles. Regarding inclusivity they are also friendlier to less fit people, especially in uneven terrain since even at my ripe age in the mid twenties I can get out of breath climbing some streets on my bicycle.

Fnoord 4y ago
> Kids are legislatively forbidden from riding motorcycles. Just let them do AM or another form of certification for small bikes that get to 50ish kmh. It's not like they can't get to 50 with a bicycle. Can you explain to me how my 4 year old who can barely use her bicycle can reach 50 km/hour? I can't even do it myself on our city bike or transport bike. An electric bicycle is far more expensive (you calling 1000 USD cheap), and they are legally not allowed to go quicker than 25 km/hour. An electric transport bike new goes for 4000 EUR here (NL). Its all fucking expensive. But regardless of the latter you're out of your mind if you believe young children are able to drive 50 km/hour on a bike, let alone safely. The issue I have with electric bikes is that they often cause accidents (usually elder) on specific bike lanes. I really don't want anyone to drive more quick than 25 km/hour there. Speedbikers and sports bikers are another problem, they're inconsiderate and don't give a rat about other users of the public space.
- Lanolderen 4y ago
  Your 4 year old does not need to commute per bicycle and in general should not be riding a bicycle on busy streets. Even on busy bicycle paths small kids can be problematic (slow and unpredictable) so they're honestly better off on the sidewalk, on barely used (residential) streets and in parks. I'm also not mentioning electric vehicles since at the moment they are a luxury product (excluding DIY). If you're looking for value it's definitely still in ICE. Although 1000 isn't exactly cheap a decent bicycle does cost 200-250 second hand in my experience. Anything cheaper tends to break the moment you give it some torque after forgetting to switch down a couple gears for a stop. I've broken so many cheap cranks it's not even funny. Also as mentioned, there's public transport and maybe moving near your work in case that's somehow too expensive. (I reckon lots of people on ~minimum salary don't work in expensive parts of the city) And I still reckon even a kid with a half decent bike can get to 50 on a nice downhill. Not too sure though and I don't feel like encouraging a kid to try although knowing how my generation was as kids they'll try without encouragement once they can ride in a straight line. I'm kinda curious if a kid can do it now so I just opened https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/cycling-wattage https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/cycling-wattage to get a rough idea and although it's definitely far from perfect for: - 16kg person weight - 9kg bike - 50km/h goal - Hoods position to assume some tuck - On asphalt with -6 grade I get 350W. On -10 grade 211W. (to maintain) Only issue is I can't find a power measurement over time for a 4 year old.
  - Fnoord 4y ago
    People drive on average 18 km/hour on a bicycle here (flat terrain). That is nowhere _near_ 50 km/hour. Racers drive such speeds, and they are aerodynamic, on a race bike, well maintained bike, etc. Our oldest is now 4, like I said she can barely bicycle as it is. Kids of age 8, 10, 12 they go to elementary school, and many go by bicycle. Sure, some walk too. After age 12 they go to high school, and these are more far away usually so its either public transport or bicycle. Bicycle is cheaper for parents, and the kids get some exercise, plus the bike lanes are reasonably secure (its illegal now to use a smartphone while using bicycle). Now, yes my 4 year old can barely cycle, and she should be on the sideways indeed. However at some point she's gonna be old enough to start cycling to school and such. And you want her to get combined with cars who drive 60 past her school where they are only allowed 30? Its an insane thought, seriously. Open up Google Maps or Apple Maps or whatever and have a look at the Amsterdam center. Look at some of the roads where cars are allowed. Now, yes, the roads where people live in a house/apartment and such, these are generally small and yes the cars gotta drive together with the bicycles. But when you go from one neighborhood to another, the cars are separated. They drive on their own lane, usually easily 50 km/hour, multiple lanes, traffic lights or roundabouts at different larger roads. You really do not want to cross such roads casually, you want to use the zebra crossing. And as a cyclist what you want to do is listen to the traffic lights, and stay on the bicyclist road. This is in a large city. Of course, in a small village or even small town, you can have it more casual. For example you could say the main road which connects to a city is mainly for cars, with separated bike lane, but for the rest cars and cyclists must share the road. And this works, perfectly well. But I grew up in a town of about 80k people, and we had various separated roads. My point being we already make all kind of concessions in The Netherlands: 1) Bicyclists may not use smartphones anymore while using their bicycle because these caused accidents. 2) Sometimes streets and bicycle lane is separated, sometimes the bicycle lane is shared but marked as such (means cars may use the area, but bicyclists have priority), and sometimes they are shared which in practice means cars much adapt to the bicyclists (and they don't like such but if they not allowed 50 km/hour that's OK). It depends on the area, and its decided by local city/province government. 3) Electric bikes are an ongoing issue/debate. Usually the elder drive them, and they cause accidents. I mentioned it because they're a serious problem, but according to local law they're not allowed to drive more quick than 25 km/hour or they fall under different jurisdiction than manual/classic bicyclists. (In your world, the manual/classic bicyclists would be able to easily go twice as quick as the legal limit of electric cyclists. While they can go quicker than 25 km/hour, and racers do indeed regularly, the casual cyclists do not and will not. They will not adapt to the 50 km/hour of the cars. Also, people in The Netherlands often have old bicycles ('barrels') cause they still work, and these won't get stolen. They won't have a new chain, they're made for flat/city terrain, and all too often you have wind not in the back. So its not only 4 year olds who would be in disadvantage; also pre-teens in general, as well as many elder.)

Fnoord 4y ago

> Kids are legislatively forbidden from riding motorcycles. Just let them do AM or another form of certification for small bikes that get to 50ish kmh. It's not like they can't get to 50 with a bicycle. Can you explain to me how my 4 year old who can barely use her bicycle can reach 50 km/hour? I can't even do it myself on our city bike or transport bike. An electric bicycle is far more expensive (you calling 1000 USD cheap), and they are legally not allowed to go quicker than 25 km/hour. An electric transport bike new goes for 4000 EUR here (NL). Its all fucking expensive. But regardless of the latter you're out of your mind if you believe young children are able to drive 50 km/hour on a bike, let alone safely. The issue I have with electric bikes is that they often cause accidents (usually elder) on specific bike lanes. I really don't want anyone to drive more quick than 25 km/hour there. Speedbikers and sports bikers are another problem, they're inconsiderate and don't give a rat about other users of the public space.

Lanolderen 4y ago
Your 4 year old does not need to commute per bicycle and in general should not be riding a bicycle on busy streets. Even on busy bicycle paths small kids can be problematic (slow and unpredictable) so they're honestly better off on the sidewalk, on barely used (residential) streets and in parks. I'm also not mentioning electric vehicles since at the moment they are a luxury product (excluding DIY). If you're looking for value it's definitely still in ICE. Although 1000 isn't exactly cheap a decent bicycle does cost 200-250 second hand in my experience. Anything cheaper tends to break the moment you give it some torque after forgetting to switch down a couple gears for a stop. I've broken so many cheap cranks it's not even funny. Also as mentioned, there's public transport and maybe moving near your work in case that's somehow too expensive. (I reckon lots of people on ~minimum salary don't work in expensive parts of the city) And I still reckon even a kid with a half decent bike can get to 50 on a nice downhill. Not too sure though and I don't feel like encouraging a kid to try although knowing how my generation was as kids they'll try without encouragement once they can ride in a straight line. I'm kinda curious if a kid can do it now so I just opened https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/cycling-wattage https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/cycling-wattage to get a rough idea and although it's definitely far from perfect for: - 16kg person weight - 9kg bike - 50km/h goal - Hoods position to assume some tuck - On asphalt with -6 grade I get 350W. On -10 grade 211W. (to maintain) Only issue is I can't find a power measurement over time for a 4 year old.
- Fnoord 4y ago
  People drive on average 18 km/hour on a bicycle here (flat terrain). That is nowhere _near_ 50 km/hour. Racers drive such speeds, and they are aerodynamic, on a race bike, well maintained bike, etc. Our oldest is now 4, like I said she can barely bicycle as it is. Kids of age 8, 10, 12 they go to elementary school, and many go by bicycle. Sure, some walk too. After age 12 they go to high school, and these are more far away usually so its either public transport or bicycle. Bicycle is cheaper for parents, and the kids get some exercise, plus the bike lanes are reasonably secure (its illegal now to use a smartphone while using bicycle). Now, yes my 4 year old can barely cycle, and she should be on the sideways indeed. However at some point she's gonna be old enough to start cycling to school and such. And you want her to get combined with cars who drive 60 past her school where they are only allowed 30? Its an insane thought, seriously. Open up Google Maps or Apple Maps or whatever and have a look at the Amsterdam center. Look at some of the roads where cars are allowed. Now, yes, the roads where people live in a house/apartment and such, these are generally small and yes the cars gotta drive together with the bicycles. But when you go from one neighborhood to another, the cars are separated. They drive on their own lane, usually easily 50 km/hour, multiple lanes, traffic lights or roundabouts at different larger roads. You really do not want to cross such roads casually, you want to use the zebra crossing. And as a cyclist what you want to do is listen to the traffic lights, and stay on the bicyclist road. This is in a large city. Of course, in a small village or even small town, you can have it more casual. For example you could say the main road which connects to a city is mainly for cars, with separated bike lane, but for the rest cars and cyclists must share the road. And this works, perfectly well. But I grew up in a town of about 80k people, and we had various separated roads. My point being we already make all kind of concessions in The Netherlands: 1) Bicyclists may not use smartphones anymore while using their bicycle because these caused accidents. 2) Sometimes streets and bicycle lane is separated, sometimes the bicycle lane is shared but marked as such (means cars may use the area, but bicyclists have priority), and sometimes they are shared which in practice means cars much adapt to the bicyclists (and they don't like such but if they not allowed 50 km/hour that's OK). It depends on the area, and its decided by local city/province government. 3) Electric bikes are an ongoing issue/debate. Usually the elder drive them, and they cause accidents. I mentioned it because they're a serious problem, but according to local law they're not allowed to drive more quick than 25 km/hour or they fall under different jurisdiction than manual/classic bicyclists. (In your world, the manual/classic bicyclists would be able to easily go twice as quick as the legal limit of electric cyclists. While they can go quicker than 25 km/hour, and racers do indeed regularly, the casual cyclists do not and will not. They will not adapt to the 50 km/hour of the cars. Also, people in The Netherlands often have old bicycles ('barrels') cause they still work, and these won't get stolen. They won't have a new chain, they're made for flat/city terrain, and all too often you have wind not in the back. So its not only 4 year olds who would be in disadvantage; also pre-teens in general, as well as many elder.)