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It will be interesting if the data show high attrition, I expect it won’t as teaching is a pretty unique job from a work schedule standpoint. I had some great

It will be interesting if the data show high attrition, I expect it won’t as teaching is a pretty unique job from a work schedule standpoint. I had some great teachers (and horrible ones) and I remember one explaining how he liked his job because it had a built-in two month sabbatical each year and it allowed him and his family to have a pretty unique travel plan. He had an option to be paid over 10 months while he taught (annual/10) or spread over the whole year (annual/12) and he got insurance either way. So he had a very regimented plan where he taught for 35 years, did cool travel each summer and retired at 55 or something with 75-100% income. There aren’t many other jobs that offer that structure. Of course the job is demanding, but most jobs are. I’m not sure how to reconcile the job difficulty Olympics so I usually just nod and agree when people go on about their job is hard. For comparison, I’ve always had to spend $500-2000/year on supplies and equipment. It’s not right and my employer should, but they never had in 30 years. And I work in programming. So it seems like all employers are lame about not paying for all supplies so I don’t quite think this is a unique negative factor. For comparison, my six grader had a list of supplies that cost $200 for the year and included 25% going to a common pool. So the school system not paying for supplies dings parents in addition to teachers.

axblount 4y ago
The attrition is not imaginary. From https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/survey-alarming-number-educators-may-soon-leave-profession https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/surve...: According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), there were approximately 10.6 million educators working in public education in January 2020; today there are just 10.0 million, a net loss of around 600,000. The BLS Job Openings and Labor Turnover survey found that the ratio of hires to job openings in the education sector reached new lows as the 2021-22 school year started. It currently stands at 0.59 hires for every open position, a large decrease from 1.54 in 2010 and 1.06 in 2016.
ibash 4y ago
I’m willing to bet you make much more than a teacher. Regardless, IMO it’s less likely a teacher stays because of wanting a summer break, and more that there aren’t alternative jobs for them. Personally I know a lot of teachers who hate it, but are stuck.
micromacrofoot 4y ago
most teachers I know work a second menial job over summer break because they aren’t paid well
- ryanSrich 4y ago
  When I graduated in 2008 teachers were doing this. Most I knew had second jobs in the summer. Never really heard of teachers using the summer as a vacation unless they had a spouse who made more money.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- midislack 4y ago
  My wife's a teacher and neither she nor her collagues have to do this.
- prepend 4y ago
  All the teachers I know (three in my neighborhood) don’t do this. So I guess we know different teachers. The US pays teachers pretty well compared to other countries [0] but that doesn’t mean that all areas pay well. [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/teacher-salaries-by-country-2017-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/teacher-salaries-by-country-...
joshmlewis 4y ago
Oh boy, your second-hand experience with teachers 20 years ago is very different than what teachers experience today. My wife just resigned after 8 years of teaching. The first thing people always say when you talk about teaching being difficult with little pay is oh they get two months a year off to lounge around and do whatever they want. You want to know what single sentence will trigger a teacher immediately? That one. Teachers are still required to plan and get ready for the next school year over the summer and then they go back a couple weeks earlier than students so it ends up not being as good as it sounds. Most teachers have extremely high anxiety and are stressed to the max. Neverending paperwork, admin that won't help, and parents that don't care and/or are extremely overbearing. It's a grind and it really takes a special kind of person to do that job yet we pay them so little.
- tejohnso 4y ago
  > plan and get ready for the next school year I don't doubt all of your points, and can imagine the frustration, but regarding the summer off being interrupted by planning work, what's to plan? If you're teaching mostly the same thing year after year, wouldn't you have an established plan that doesn't require significant modification? What does "get ready for the next school year" entail?
  - fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
    > what's to plan? If you're teaching mostly the same thing year after year, wouldn't you have an established plan that doesn't require significant modification? What does "get ready for the next school year" entail? I’m bookmarking this as a delightful example of “begging the question,” wherein the question is actually begged. You correctly identified and ran past the fundamental underlying assumption: teachers teach virtually the same thing each year. In reality, curriculum changes can happen as a result of (1) changes in the underlying textbook and course material, precipitated by publishers (2) changes in student and teacher KPIs precipitated by school administration, (3) changes in technological education-delivery platforms, precipitated by school IT, (4) personal changes, precipitated by experience and personal/professional motivation, and (5) changes in professional best-practices, precipitated by scholarship and professional organizations; to name a few. These things happen regularly, and often simultaneously.
fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
Two noteworthy dimensions when considering difficulty of job, especially as it relates to other professions, including highly-compensated tech workers: (1) Average salary of teachers is approximately 40% less than the average salary of any STEM-related-field worker).[1] (2) Schools are a unique legal environment with respect to torts and the criminal law in that actions against teachers which would in other contexts constitute unlawful acts appropriate for remedy in courts is instead most often investigated, adjudicated, and penalty rendered by a combination of the school’s head, administration, and resource officers. There is also the non-emergent but nevertheless constantly renewed concern about the viability and mortality of teachers and students with respect to mass violence as well.[2] [1]https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ocwage.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ocwage.pdf [2]https://www.chds.us/ssdb/ https://www.chds.us/ssdb/
- cldellow 4y ago
  How does ZipRecruiter get those numbers? By contrast, the BLS [1] says the median pay is $60k, and the bottom 10% earns at most $45k. This doesn't seem to square with "most teachers make less than $37k". Perhaps the BLS data is skewed? I'm Canadian, so don't know how they collect it. But my intuition is that they are likely to have access to much better data than ZipRecruiter. The fact that ZipRecruiter thinks no teacher earns between $55k and $70k is also a little dubious. [1]: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-...
  - fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
    You’re right that the BLS is a stronger authority and a more reliable source, generally. I’d just note that the statistics you cite relate to high school teachers, who are compensated most highly among K-12 teachers, while the discussion in the thread and the ZipRecruiter data relates to teachers broadly, including K-8.
    - cldellow 4y ago
      If you expand the Pay or Similar Occupations sections, you'll see data for elementary and middle school teachers. It's roughly the same.
shanecleveland 4y ago
> retired at 55 or something with 75-100% income. Not happening anymore.
yardie 4y ago
Your 2nd hand experience of teaching from an educator 20 years ago is very different from the current reality. School districts have taken on more task and passed the responsibility of executing them to the frontline workers (teachers). To save money they technically get laid off every summer and rehired in the fall. They do this because the schoolboard budget can be changed at any moment. If they need to layoff a lot of teachers the formal paperwork is already done. You can imagine this can be extremely stressful, especially for new teachers. > I’ve always had to spend $500-2000/year on supplies and equipment. That is supplies bought to use for you by you. It would be different if you bought supplies for someone else.
- prepend 4y ago
  That’s not just supplies for me. It’s supplies for my team, for office activities, for user events, etc. My point is that many people buy supplies for their work, it’s not unique to teaching. It’s surprising that it’s brought up as it it’s some unique factor.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - carapace 4y ago
    > My point is that many people buy supplies for their work Sure, with the money their work budgets for those supplies. Teachers are having to spend part of their own paychecks to buy supplies. If your job requires you to pay for supplies out of your own paycheck then that's obviously a raw deal, just a sneaky way to pay lower wages.
    - prepend 4y ago
      To clarify, I meant that many people buy supplies and aren’t reimbursed by their employers. I agree that it sucks that we aren’t reimbursed by our employers. At least teachers get a small tax credit. Better than nothing, but still not enough.

axblount 4y ago

The attrition is not imaginary. From https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/survey-alarming-number-educators-may-soon-leave-profession https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-change/new-from-nea/surve...: According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), there were approximately 10.6 million educators working in public education in January 2020; today there are just 10.0 million, a net loss of around 600,000. The BLS Job Openings and Labor Turnover survey found that the ratio of hires to job openings in the education sector reached new lows as the 2021-22 school year started. It currently stands at 0.59 hires for every open position, a large decrease from 1.54 in 2010 and 1.06 in 2016.

ibash 4y ago

I’m willing to bet you make much more than a teacher. Regardless, IMO it’s less likely a teacher stays because of wanting a summer break, and more that there aren’t alternative jobs for them. Personally I know a lot of teachers who hate it, but are stuck.

micromacrofoot 4y ago

most teachers I know work a second menial job over summer break because they aren’t paid well

ryanSrich 4y ago
When I graduated in 2008 teachers were doing this. Most I knew had second jobs in the summer. Never really heard of teachers using the summer as a vacation unless they had a spouse who made more money.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
midislack 4y ago
My wife's a teacher and neither she nor her collagues have to do this.
prepend 4y ago
All the teachers I know (three in my neighborhood) don’t do this. So I guess we know different teachers. The US pays teachers pretty well compared to other countries [0] but that doesn’t mean that all areas pay well. [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/teacher-salaries-by-country-2017-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/teacher-salaries-by-country-...

joshmlewis 4y ago

Oh boy, your second-hand experience with teachers 20 years ago is very different than what teachers experience today. My wife just resigned after 8 years of teaching. The first thing people always say when you talk about teaching being difficult with little pay is oh they get two months a year off to lounge around and do whatever they want. You want to know what single sentence will trigger a teacher immediately? That one. Teachers are still required to plan and get ready for the next school year over the summer and then they go back a couple weeks earlier than students so it ends up not being as good as it sounds. Most teachers have extremely high anxiety and are stressed to the max. Neverending paperwork, admin that won't help, and parents that don't care and/or are extremely overbearing. It's a grind and it really takes a special kind of person to do that job yet we pay them so little.

tejohnso 4y ago
> plan and get ready for the next school year I don't doubt all of your points, and can imagine the frustration, but regarding the summer off being interrupted by planning work, what's to plan? If you're teaching mostly the same thing year after year, wouldn't you have an established plan that doesn't require significant modification? What does "get ready for the next school year" entail?
- fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
  > what's to plan? If you're teaching mostly the same thing year after year, wouldn't you have an established plan that doesn't require significant modification? What does "get ready for the next school year" entail? I’m bookmarking this as a delightful example of “begging the question,” wherein the question is actually begged. You correctly identified and ran past the fundamental underlying assumption: teachers teach virtually the same thing each year. In reality, curriculum changes can happen as a result of (1) changes in the underlying textbook and course material, precipitated by publishers (2) changes in student and teacher KPIs precipitated by school administration, (3) changes in technological education-delivery platforms, precipitated by school IT, (4) personal changes, precipitated by experience and personal/professional motivation, and (5) changes in professional best-practices, precipitated by scholarship and professional organizations; to name a few. These things happen regularly, and often simultaneously.

fleetwoodsnack 4y ago

Two noteworthy dimensions when considering difficulty of job, especially as it relates to other professions, including highly-compensated tech workers: (1) Average salary of teachers is approximately 40% less than the average salary of any STEM-related-field worker).[1] (2) Schools are a unique legal environment with respect to torts and the criminal law in that actions against teachers which would in other contexts constitute unlawful acts appropriate for remedy in courts is instead most often investigated, adjudicated, and penalty rendered by a combination of the school’s head, administration, and resource officers. There is also the non-emergent but nevertheless constantly renewed concern about the viability and mortality of teachers and students with respect to mass violence as well.[2] [1]https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ocwage.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ocwage.pdf [2]https://www.chds.us/ssdb/ https://www.chds.us/ssdb/

cldellow 4y ago
How does ZipRecruiter get those numbers? By contrast, the BLS [1] says the median pay is $60k, and the bottom 10% earns at most $45k. This doesn't seem to square with "most teachers make less than $37k". Perhaps the BLS data is skewed? I'm Canadian, so don't know how they collect it. But my intuition is that they are likely to have access to much better data than ZipRecruiter. The fact that ZipRecruiter thinks no teacher earns between $55k and $70k is also a little dubious. [1]: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-...
- fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
  You’re right that the BLS is a stronger authority and a more reliable source, generally. I’d just note that the statistics you cite relate to high school teachers, who are compensated most highly among K-12 teachers, while the discussion in the thread and the ZipRecruiter data relates to teachers broadly, including K-8.
  - cldellow 4y ago
    If you expand the Pay or Similar Occupations sections, you'll see data for elementary and middle school teachers. It's roughly the same.

shanecleveland 4y ago

> retired at 55 or something with 75-100% income. Not happening anymore.

yardie 4y ago

Your 2nd hand experience of teaching from an educator 20 years ago is very different from the current reality. School districts have taken on more task and passed the responsibility of executing them to the frontline workers (teachers). To save money they technically get laid off every summer and rehired in the fall. They do this because the schoolboard budget can be changed at any moment. If they need to layoff a lot of teachers the formal paperwork is already done. You can imagine this can be extremely stressful, especially for new teachers. > I’ve always had to spend $500-2000/year on supplies and equipment. That is supplies bought to use for you by you. It would be different if you bought supplies for someone else.

prepend 4y ago
That’s not just supplies for me. It’s supplies for my team, for office activities, for user events, etc. My point is that many people buy supplies for their work, it’s not unique to teaching. It’s surprising that it’s brought up as it it’s some unique factor.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- carapace 4y ago
  > My point is that many people buy supplies for their work Sure, with the money their work budgets for those supplies. Teachers are having to spend part of their own paychecks to buy supplies. If your job requires you to pay for supplies out of your own paycheck then that's obviously a raw deal, just a sneaky way to pay lower wages.
  - prepend 4y ago
    To clarify, I meant that many people buy supplies and aren’t reimbursed by their employers. I agree that it sucks that we aren’t reimbursed by our employers. At least teachers get a small tax credit. Better than nothing, but still not enough.