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Or cyclists can be incentivised to move to small motorcycles (pedelec if they want to stay fit) and we avoid the whole issue of converting car lanes to bicycle

Or cyclists can be incentivised to move to small motorcycles (pedelec if they want to stay fit) and we avoid the whole issue of converting car lanes to bicycle lanes and then reverting that decision because a traffic jam occurred and residents were not impressed, wasting money in the process ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

avianlyric 4y ago
What about people that can’t drive a motorcycle, like children? Or people that can’t afford a motorcycle? Or people that have nowhere to store a motorbike (I’ll like to see you hang a motorbike on a wall)? Do we just abandon them? > we avoid the whole issue of converting car lanes to bicycle lanes and then reverting that decision because a traffic jam occurred and residents were not impressed, wasting money in the process There are huge piles of empirical evidence that shows the complete opposite of this happens. Introducing bike infrastructure, at the cost of car infrastructure, almost always reduces congestion after a short adaptation period passes. Turns out if you give people cheaper easier ways of moving a round a city or town, they’ll pick them over a car.
- Lanolderen 4y ago
  Kids are legislatively forbidden from riding motorcycles. Just let them do AM or another form of certification for small bikes that get to 50ish kmh. It's not like they can't get to 50 with a bicycle. I'd even argue it's safer since it's easier to wear protective gear when you don't have to pedal. Affording it isn't a real issue either. (i)Second hand motorcycles can be had for really cheap since they're treated as toys in the western world. I just opened up the listings for where I live (smallish town in Germany) and there are 44 ads for working bikes under 1000$ in 25km radius of me. Some are even proper 600cc+ machines. (ii)16 brand new bikes in that same area can be bought for under 2000$. (iii)Public transport. Storage: Small bikes can be manhandled into an apartment if it's about long term storage. Short term, just park it on the street like a normal person. Put a tracker on it if you're worried. I get that it improves over time but the short term effects are what determines whether whoever implements it remains in power long enough to see that. And I'd argue still that motorcycles are way faster and therefore better at decreasing congestion than bicycles. Regarding inclusivity they are also friendlier to less fit people, especially in uneven terrain since even at my ripe age in the mid twenties I can get out of breath climbing some streets on my bicycle.
  - Fnoord 4y ago
    > Kids are legislatively forbidden from riding motorcycles. Just let them do AM or another form of certification for small bikes that get to 50ish kmh. It's not like they can't get to 50 with a bicycle. Can you explain to me how my 4 year old who can barely use her bicycle can reach 50 km/hour? I can't even do it myself on our city bike or transport bike. An electric bicycle is far more expensive (you calling 1000 USD cheap), and they are legally not allowed to go quicker than 25 km/hour. An electric transport bike new goes for 4000 EUR here (NL). Its all fucking expensive. But regardless of the latter you're out of your mind if you believe young children are able to drive 50 km/hour on a bike, let alone safely. The issue I have with electric bikes is that they often cause accidents (usually elder) on specific bike lanes. I really don't want anyone to drive more quick than 25 km/hour there. Speedbikers and sports bikers are another problem, they're inconsiderate and don't give a rat about other users of the public space.
    - Lanolderen 4y ago
      Your 4 year old does not need to commute per bicycle and in general should not be riding a bicycle on busy streets. Even on busy bicycle paths small kids can be problematic (slow and unpredictable) so they're honestly better off on the sidewalk, on barely used (residential) streets and in parks. I'm also not mentioning electric vehicles since at the moment they are a luxury product (excluding DIY). If you're looking for value it's definitely still in ICE. Although 1000 isn't exactly cheap a decent bicycle does cost 200-250 second hand in my experience. Anything cheaper tends to break the moment you give it some torque after forgetting to switch down a couple gears for a stop. I've broken so many cheap cranks it's not even funny. Also as mentioned, there's public transport and maybe moving near your work in case that's somehow too expensive. (I reckon lots of people on ~minimum salary don't work in expensive parts of the city) And I still reckon even a kid with a half decent bike can get to 50 on a nice downhill. Not too sure though and I don't feel like encouraging a kid to try although knowing how my generation was as kids they'll try without encouragement once they can ride in a straight line. I'm kinda curious if a kid can do it now so I just opened https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/cycling-wattage https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/cycling-wattage to get a rough idea and although it's definitely far from perfect for: - 16kg person weight - 9kg bike - 50km/h goal - Hoods position to assume some tuck - On asphalt with -6 grade I get 350W. On -10 grade 211W. (to maintain) Only issue is I can't find a power measurement over time for a 4 year old.

avianlyric 4y ago

What about people that can’t drive a motorcycle, like children? Or people that can’t afford a motorcycle? Or people that have nowhere to store a motorbike (I’ll like to see you hang a motorbike on a wall)? Do we just abandon them? > we avoid the whole issue of converting car lanes to bicycle lanes and then reverting that decision because a traffic jam occurred and residents were not impressed, wasting money in the process There are huge piles of empirical evidence that shows the complete opposite of this happens. Introducing bike infrastructure, at the cost of car infrastructure, almost always reduces congestion after a short adaptation period passes. Turns out if you give people cheaper easier ways of moving a round a city or town, they’ll pick them over a car.

Lanolderen 4y ago
Kids are legislatively forbidden from riding motorcycles. Just let them do AM or another form of certification for small bikes that get to 50ish kmh. It's not like they can't get to 50 with a bicycle. I'd even argue it's safer since it's easier to wear protective gear when you don't have to pedal. Affording it isn't a real issue either. (i)Second hand motorcycles can be had for really cheap since they're treated as toys in the western world. I just opened up the listings for where I live (smallish town in Germany) and there are 44 ads for working bikes under 1000$ in 25km radius of me. Some are even proper 600cc+ machines. (ii)16 brand new bikes in that same area can be bought for under 2000$. (iii)Public transport. Storage: Small bikes can be manhandled into an apartment if it's about long term storage. Short term, just park it on the street like a normal person. Put a tracker on it if you're worried. I get that it improves over time but the short term effects are what determines whether whoever implements it remains in power long enough to see that. And I'd argue still that motorcycles are way faster and therefore better at decreasing congestion than bicycles. Regarding inclusivity they are also friendlier to less fit people, especially in uneven terrain since even at my ripe age in the mid twenties I can get out of breath climbing some streets on my bicycle.
- Fnoord 4y ago
  > Kids are legislatively forbidden from riding motorcycles. Just let them do AM or another form of certification for small bikes that get to 50ish kmh. It's not like they can't get to 50 with a bicycle. Can you explain to me how my 4 year old who can barely use her bicycle can reach 50 km/hour? I can't even do it myself on our city bike or transport bike. An electric bicycle is far more expensive (you calling 1000 USD cheap), and they are legally not allowed to go quicker than 25 km/hour. An electric transport bike new goes for 4000 EUR here (NL). Its all fucking expensive. But regardless of the latter you're out of your mind if you believe young children are able to drive 50 km/hour on a bike, let alone safely. The issue I have with electric bikes is that they often cause accidents (usually elder) on specific bike lanes. I really don't want anyone to drive more quick than 25 km/hour there. Speedbikers and sports bikers are another problem, they're inconsiderate and don't give a rat about other users of the public space.
  - Lanolderen 4y ago
    Your 4 year old does not need to commute per bicycle and in general should not be riding a bicycle on busy streets. Even on busy bicycle paths small kids can be problematic (slow and unpredictable) so they're honestly better off on the sidewalk, on barely used (residential) streets and in parks. I'm also not mentioning electric vehicles since at the moment they are a luxury product (excluding DIY). If you're looking for value it's definitely still in ICE. Although 1000 isn't exactly cheap a decent bicycle does cost 200-250 second hand in my experience. Anything cheaper tends to break the moment you give it some torque after forgetting to switch down a couple gears for a stop. I've broken so many cheap cranks it's not even funny. Also as mentioned, there's public transport and maybe moving near your work in case that's somehow too expensive. (I reckon lots of people on ~minimum salary don't work in expensive parts of the city) And I still reckon even a kid with a half decent bike can get to 50 on a nice downhill. Not too sure though and I don't feel like encouraging a kid to try although knowing how my generation was as kids they'll try without encouragement once they can ride in a straight line. I'm kinda curious if a kid can do it now so I just opened https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/cycling-wattage https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/cycling-wattage to get a rough idea and although it's definitely far from perfect for: - 16kg person weight - 9kg bike - 50km/h goal - Hoods position to assume some tuck - On asphalt with -6 grade I get 350W. On -10 grade 211W. (to maintain) Only issue is I can't find a power measurement over time for a 4 year old.