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Had similar experience when I was out working in Berlin. I had a gym membership in one part of the city (paid up 12 months in advance in cash). Moved to a diffe

Had similar experience when I was out working in Berlin. I had a gym membership in one part of the city (paid up 12 months in advance in cash). Moved to a different part of the city and didn't go back. Fast forward about six months, two bald headed goons came knocking at my old address looking for me, with a 1850 euro bill. Gym membership for the next year plus a 900 euro service charge because I hadn't written a letter starting my intention not to renew by 90 days of the time of an automatic roll over. Luckily for me, the Aussie guy staying in my old place told them I'd moved into a squat and they'd have to serve notice on two dozen angry punks if they wanted their money. Never heard from them again. But I was lucky, if I'd given them a bank account the full amount would have been charged straight away, with no comeback or way to get my money back for a service I didn't use, and the bank would be absolutely fine with that. Shortly after I moved much of my funds into crypto, and would do it again for the security from arbitrary seizure.

LeonM 4y ago
If it makes you feel better: most gyms are a scam. The whole business model is about selling as much memberships as possible, and making it hard to cancel. Most gyms sell much more memberships than they could even remotely facilitate, because they know ~80% of the members never return after the first month or so. I used to work at a small gym that could handle maybe 100 visitors a day, I think they had over 8000 paying members. You could only cancel by letter 1 month in advance of the renewal date. The only exception was a doctor's letter for some medical reason you could no longer go to the gym. The owner drove a Ferrari (albeit second hand). Every year on January, after people had been over-consuming food and had ambitious new year resolutions, they'd do all sorts of promotions, and they would sell for about a years worth of new subscriptions in a day. I'd estimate 90% of those 'januaries' (as they'd call them) no longer returned after the first month. About 75% forgot to cancel in December, so they would be charged again for a full year, though they hadn't visited in 11 months. This is a common 'exploit' of human behaviour. People feel good about taking the first step in weight loss by buying the membership. But when you think about it, it makes no sense at all why you'd need a 'membership' the gain access to a gym. This is also why home training devices are a big business, and why they usually come with terrible return policies.
jsiepkes 4y ago
> if I'd given them a bank account the full amount would have been charged straight away, with no comeback Can they do that in Germany? In the Netherlands you can revert such "charge" transactions ("incasso") up to 13 months after they happen. Also, over here every subscription becomes monthly cancelable after the first year.
- 2rsf 4y ago
  > you can revert such "charge" transactions ("incasso") up to 13 months after they happen. You probably need a reason to revert them?
  - jsiepkes 4y ago
    Up til 8 weeks the bank will just carry out the reversal without asking any questions. This is done by just pressing a button in your banking app. After 8 weeks have passed you will indeed need to supply a reason.
    - 2rsf 4y ago
      but that won't save you from anything- you will get sued or dragged to debt collection
distances 4y ago
> Shortly after I moved much of my funds into crypto, and would do it again for the security from arbitrary seizure. I don't think they would've been able to seize the money. But in any case your approach doesn't work, you still owe that money. Automatic renewals is a scummy practice but if they do have a legal claim you won't get out of it by being hard to find and keeping your money in crypto. Probably best to treat it as an expensive lesson and remember to close your subscriptions in the future.
- aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
  Exhibit A of why predatory consumer practices work. You'd rather be civil, than treated civilly.
  - distances 4y ago
    The practices need regulatory action to fight against. Germany got recently some legislated improvements like automatic renewals being cancellable with a one month notice period. Not sure if that applies to gyms too, but I certainly hope so.
2rsf 4y ago
> because I hadn't written a letter starting my intention not to renew by 90 days of the time of an automatic roll over. No, it's because you signed a contract (scammy or not) and didn't follow its terms. You wouldn't want someone to do that to a service you provide.

LeonM 4y ago

If it makes you feel better: most gyms are a scam. The whole business model is about selling as much memberships as possible, and making it hard to cancel. Most gyms sell much more memberships than they could even remotely facilitate, because they know ~80% of the members never return after the first month or so. I used to work at a small gym that could handle maybe 100 visitors a day, I think they had over 8000 paying members. You could only cancel by letter 1 month in advance of the renewal date. The only exception was a doctor's letter for some medical reason you could no longer go to the gym. The owner drove a Ferrari (albeit second hand). Every year on January, after people had been over-consuming food and had ambitious new year resolutions, they'd do all sorts of promotions, and they would sell for about a years worth of new subscriptions in a day. I'd estimate 90% of those 'januaries' (as they'd call them) no longer returned after the first month. About 75% forgot to cancel in December, so they would be charged again for a full year, though they hadn't visited in 11 months. This is a common 'exploit' of human behaviour. People feel good about taking the first step in weight loss by buying the membership. But when you think about it, it makes no sense at all why you'd need a 'membership' the gain access to a gym. This is also why home training devices are a big business, and why they usually come with terrible return policies.

jsiepkes 4y ago

> if I'd given them a bank account the full amount would have been charged straight away, with no comeback Can they do that in Germany? In the Netherlands you can revert such "charge" transactions ("incasso") up to 13 months after they happen. Also, over here every subscription becomes monthly cancelable after the first year.

2rsf 4y ago
> you can revert such "charge" transactions ("incasso") up to 13 months after they happen. You probably need a reason to revert them?
- jsiepkes 4y ago
  Up til 8 weeks the bank will just carry out the reversal without asking any questions. This is done by just pressing a button in your banking app. After 8 weeks have passed you will indeed need to supply a reason.
  - 2rsf 4y ago
    but that won't save you from anything- you will get sued or dragged to debt collection

distances 4y ago

> Shortly after I moved much of my funds into crypto, and would do it again for the security from arbitrary seizure. I don't think they would've been able to seize the money. But in any case your approach doesn't work, you still owe that money. Automatic renewals is a scummy practice but if they do have a legal claim you won't get out of it by being hard to find and keeping your money in crypto. Probably best to treat it as an expensive lesson and remember to close your subscriptions in the future.

aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
Exhibit A of why predatory consumer practices work. You'd rather be civil, than treated civilly.
- distances 4y ago
  The practices need regulatory action to fight against. Germany got recently some legislated improvements like automatic renewals being cancellable with a one month notice period. Not sure if that applies to gyms too, but I certainly hope so.

2rsf 4y ago

> because I hadn't written a letter starting my intention not to renew by 90 days of the time of an automatic roll over. No, it's because you signed a contract (scammy or not) and didn't follow its terms. You wouldn't want someone to do that to a service you provide.