5 ms·

Oh just stop. I'll eat Falafel and other vegan foods. But why would I ever eat a chicken or beef replacement? Just make some unconstrained good vegan food. It'l

Oh just stop. I'll eat Falafel and other vegan foods. But why would I ever eat a chicken or beef replacement? Just make some unconstrained good vegan food. It'll be better.

neuronic 4y ago
Don't be this absolute, please. So I love the taste of meat, but I generally don't think my personal enjoyment is sufficient reason to further harm both highly intelligent animals and the climate. It's a decision I have deemed egoistic with regards to myself (and myself only - I am not one for evangelism). I want to explain why my experience seems a bit different with "replacements". It is very hard to change habits, so I have not stopped eating meat completely. However, I have successfully reduced my meat consumption by a significant amount, all thanks to some substitutes making it very easy to reduce some real meat while keeping my every-day habit foods. The quality and taste of the replacements range from excellent to complete utter shit. I exclusively focus on the currently good or excellent ones and adapt new items from now and then. For example, the "Rügenwalder Mühle" company in Germany makes some excellent products [1] that are totally enough to satisfy me. Substitution works best with meats that are typically a highly processed mess filled with salt & spices. No, it doesn't fully taste the same as meat but, like I said, it tastes good enough and every gram less meat eaten is a microscopic positive change that still matters en masse. [1] https://www.ruegenwalder.de/vegetarische-und-vegane-produkte https://www.ruegenwalder.de/vegetarische-und-vegane-produkte
- uxcolumbo 4y ago
  If more people would think like you it'd be a great step forward, i.e. putting climate / biosphere health & stability and reducing animal suffering above their taste buds and being happy with 'good enough'. Plant based meat substitutes are becoming better and better. Some folks can't tell the difference already.
  - cheese_goddess 4y ago
    That's because like OP says "Substitution works best with meats that are typically a highly processed mess filled with salt & spices". See how Burger King and McDonalds are so eager to sell you plant burgers and plant nuggets? That's because they don't give a shit what you eat, as long as it gets you in through the door. But those are the same people, the same industry, the same organisations, that are responsible for the over-production and over-consumption of meat, and they are very directly responsible for deforestation and land use change for industrial farming. Not eating meat may or may not do anything for the environment, but continuing to support the food industry does exactly the opposite: it supports the people who destroy the environment. And the ones who torture animals to boot. Here's a simple solution: don't eat industrial shit. If you're going to eat meat, eat meat from a small, local farmer (not for the miles, but for the size). If you're going to not eat meat, then don't eat fake meat, but real food made of plants and that looks like plants. And if you can't stand not eating meat, then sit down and think why not. Moralising about pleasure is dumb. People enjoy eating meat for the same reason we enjoy eating plants: because it's nourishing. You want to save the environment? Eat real food and support the people who make real food. Not burgers.
    - uxcolumbo 4y ago
      Yes - you have these substitutes that are high in fats and salt. But there are also substitutes that are healthier. Or like you said, just don't go for fake meat products - that's also an option. But to allow people to transition to a more plant-based diet and try out different dishes - these fake meat burgers help. > Not eating meat may or may not do anything for the environment Not eating meat will reduce our carbon footprint and deforestation. The conclusion of this Oxford University study [0] is that the single best thing an individual can do to reduce their environmental footprint is to avoid or reduce as much as possible meat & dairy consumption. The lead researcher gave up meat & dairy because of this study. > Moralising about pleasure is dumb. People enjoy eating meat for the same reason we enjoy eating plants: because it's nourishing. Why is it dumb? As far as I know we are the only animal with morale agency. Then why don't we use it? Do you think it's justified to kill a sentient being, like a cow, just so we can enjoy its flesh? Like you said, plants are equally nourishing, so why not avoid killing other sentient beings when it's not necessary anymore for our survival? > Eat real food and support the people who make real food. I'm all for that. But we'd need a different agricultural system - maybe vertical farms etc - to make this scalable and more affordable. One thing that must end is subsidizing the meat & dairy industry and subsidize foods with a lower environmental footprint. [0] https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2018-06-01-new-estimates-environmental-cost-food https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2018-06-01-new-estimates-environme...
cheese_goddess 4y ago

Oh just stop. I'll eat Falafel and other vegan foods. But why would I ever eat a chicken or beef replacement? Just make some unconstrained good vegan food. It'll be better.

neuronic 4y ago

Don't be this absolute, please. So I love the taste of meat, but I generally don't think my personal enjoyment is sufficient reason to further harm both highly intelligent animals and the climate. It's a decision I have deemed egoistic with regards to myself (and myself only - I am not one for evangelism). I want to explain why my experience seems a bit different with "replacements". It is very hard to change habits, so I have not stopped eating meat completely. However, I have successfully reduced my meat consumption by a significant amount, all thanks to some substitutes making it very easy to reduce some real meat while keeping my every-day habit foods. The quality and taste of the replacements range from excellent to complete utter shit. I exclusively focus on the currently good or excellent ones and adapt new items from now and then. For example, the "Rügenwalder Mühle" company in Germany makes some excellent products [1] that are totally enough to satisfy me. Substitution works best with meats that are typically a highly processed mess filled with salt & spices. No, it doesn't fully taste the same as meat but, like I said, it tastes good enough and every gram less meat eaten is a microscopic positive change that still matters en masse. [1] https://www.ruegenwalder.de/vegetarische-und-vegane-produkte https://www.ruegenwalder.de/vegetarische-und-vegane-produkte

uxcolumbo 4y ago
If more people would think like you it'd be a great step forward, i.e. putting climate / biosphere health & stability and reducing animal suffering above their taste buds and being happy with 'good enough'. Plant based meat substitutes are becoming better and better. Some folks can't tell the difference already.
- cheese_goddess 4y ago
  That's because like OP says "Substitution works best with meats that are typically a highly processed mess filled with salt & spices". See how Burger King and McDonalds are so eager to sell you plant burgers and plant nuggets? That's because they don't give a shit what you eat, as long as it gets you in through the door. But those are the same people, the same industry, the same organisations, that are responsible for the over-production and over-consumption of meat, and they are very directly responsible for deforestation and land use change for industrial farming. Not eating meat may or may not do anything for the environment, but continuing to support the food industry does exactly the opposite: it supports the people who destroy the environment. And the ones who torture animals to boot. Here's a simple solution: don't eat industrial shit. If you're going to eat meat, eat meat from a small, local farmer (not for the miles, but for the size). If you're going to not eat meat, then don't eat fake meat, but real food made of plants and that looks like plants. And if you can't stand not eating meat, then sit down and think why not. Moralising about pleasure is dumb. People enjoy eating meat for the same reason we enjoy eating plants: because it's nourishing. You want to save the environment? Eat real food and support the people who make real food. Not burgers.
  - uxcolumbo 4y ago
    Yes - you have these substitutes that are high in fats and salt. But there are also substitutes that are healthier. Or like you said, just don't go for fake meat products - that's also an option. But to allow people to transition to a more plant-based diet and try out different dishes - these fake meat burgers help. > Not eating meat may or may not do anything for the environment Not eating meat will reduce our carbon footprint and deforestation. The conclusion of this Oxford University study [0] is that the single best thing an individual can do to reduce their environmental footprint is to avoid or reduce as much as possible meat & dairy consumption. The lead researcher gave up meat & dairy because of this study. > Moralising about pleasure is dumb. People enjoy eating meat for the same reason we enjoy eating plants: because it's nourishing. Why is it dumb? As far as I know we are the only animal with morale agency. Then why don't we use it? Do you think it's justified to kill a sentient being, like a cow, just so we can enjoy its flesh? Like you said, plants are equally nourishing, so why not avoid killing other sentient beings when it's not necessary anymore for our survival? > Eat real food and support the people who make real food. I'm all for that. But we'd need a different agricultural system - maybe vertical farms etc - to make this scalable and more affordable. One thing that must end is subsidizing the meat & dairy industry and subsidize foods with a lower environmental footprint. [0] https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2018-06-01-new-estimates-environmental-cost-food https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2018-06-01-new-estimates-environme...

cheese_goddess 4y ago