5 ms·

The state ceases to be responsible to the people and exists of and for itself.

by c0brac0bra 4y ago

wolverine876 4y ago
I don't understand. Could you go into more detail on how that addresses the issues raised by the top comment?
- GWBullshit 4y ago
  All institutions by design implicitly have a core, if unspoken "prime directive": self-preservation. You could start an institution with the best intentions known to mankind, but if that institution doesn't preserve itself first and foremost, then all other stated official objectives become mute. Now, if you have an institution that has a clearly stated objective (in addition to the core, unstated objective of self-preservation) like, "We discovered a cure for cancer and want to get it out to as many people affected by cancer in as quick and cost-effective manner as possible" ... this is all well and good. But what if you have an institution with vague and seemingly implied but not technically-stated objectives that in effect are more of a "free to imagine/interpret them as you wish" sort of deal – for example, what are the "objectives" of the Indian government/law enforcement arm of the government other than the vague and practically-useless-for-being-held-accountable-for-performance, "We want to govern shit"? What if you somewhere find on some Indian document an objective like, "To preserve law and order"? What laws, written by who, for whose benefit, and what order, and again, for who? Sounds like the caste system all over again. Now what if they got more specific like, "To preserve law and order in order to encourage social stability" ... again ... stability FOR WHO? Does the majority of the Indian population want "stability?" Obviously not as they would most likely indicate they want social mobility to rise out of poverty. The problem is ... their social mobility = overall social instability, especially for those aspects of Indian society who are "at the top of the social hierarchy" who also tend to correlate with "those who govern." It's relatively easy to govern when you have state-provided homes and vacation homes and so on and the majority of the population lives in shacks. Not so easy when the majority of the populace is relatively well off. This then introduces the theory that George Orwell addressed in 1984: that tyrannical states, as an institution, eventually degenerate into doing nothing but attending to their "core objective" of self-preservation at all costs, and will purposely do things to keep the majority of the population perpetually poor so that the discrepancies of relative wealth can be used as a power mechanism (most people won't be bothered to think about higher-order abstract social constructs like "government" if they're too busy worrying about job stability or even worse, where their next meal will come from). In furtherance of this "1984" approach to subduing the population, consider Modi's (and other politicians in that general area) constant "Oh no, another border skirmish with "the enemy" ... right around the times of internal political turmoil – basically, a convenient excuse to distract the internal populace and redirect it's attention to external "threats" to cultural homogeneity. So then, as (for example in this case, but not at all exclusive to, as this tends to happen to ALL institutions – for example Universities of "Higher Learning" that wind up hoarding donations intended to help students in increasingly massive investment funds that sometimes rival professional Wall Street institutions) the Indian government degenerates into simply securing the primary (if unspoken of) directive of "continual self-preservation" ... the very subject of the government's "governing", ie, the general populace ... becomes a factor external to the Indian government itself (as well as its law-enforcement mechanisms). Now, what is that "external factor" of the general populace itself most likely to be viewed as? 1.) An external aspect of the internal reality of government and it's mechanisms that needs to be further integrated 2.) An external oddity that can be viewed as an item of curiosity during times when the government has no particular urgent matters to attend to, or ignored when it does have other, more urgent matters (such as self-preservation) to attend to 3.) A possible threat to the continuity of "keeping things as they are"?
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    > What laws, written by who, for whose benefit, and what order, and again, for who? Written by the people of India through their democratic process. It's not a mystery or of questionable legitimacy.
    - GWBullshit 4y ago
      > Written by the people of India through their democratic process. It's not a mystery or of questionable legitimacy. India has an illiteracy rate of nearly 1/4, and one of the highest among adults on the planet: https://world.time.com/2014/01/29/indian-adult-illiteracy/ https://world.time.com/2014/01/29/indian-adult-illiteracy/ I HIGHLY doubt that that segment of Indian society had ANYTHING to do with the writing of any laws. Likewise, it's doubtful they were minded as the intended primary beneficiaries of such laws when they were written by a minute segment of the remaining 3/4 of Indian society, keeping in mind that many members of that remaining 3/4 ALSO complain of systematically-rampant corruption.

The state ceases to be responsible to the people and exists of and for itself.

wolverine876 4y ago

I don't understand. Could you go into more detail on how that addresses the issues raised by the top comment?

GWBullshit 4y ago
All institutions by design implicitly have a core, if unspoken "prime directive": self-preservation. You could start an institution with the best intentions known to mankind, but if that institution doesn't preserve itself first and foremost, then all other stated official objectives become mute. Now, if you have an institution that has a clearly stated objective (in addition to the core, unstated objective of self-preservation) like, "We discovered a cure for cancer and want to get it out to as many people affected by cancer in as quick and cost-effective manner as possible" ... this is all well and good. But what if you have an institution with vague and seemingly implied but not technically-stated objectives that in effect are more of a "free to imagine/interpret them as you wish" sort of deal – for example, what are the "objectives" of the Indian government/law enforcement arm of the government other than the vague and practically-useless-for-being-held-accountable-for-performance, "We want to govern shit"? What if you somewhere find on some Indian document an objective like, "To preserve law and order"? What laws, written by who, for whose benefit, and what order, and again, for who? Sounds like the caste system all over again. Now what if they got more specific like, "To preserve law and order in order to encourage social stability" ... again ... stability FOR WHO? Does the majority of the Indian population want "stability?" Obviously not as they would most likely indicate they want social mobility to rise out of poverty. The problem is ... their social mobility = overall social instability, especially for those aspects of Indian society who are "at the top of the social hierarchy" who also tend to correlate with "those who govern." It's relatively easy to govern when you have state-provided homes and vacation homes and so on and the majority of the population lives in shacks. Not so easy when the majority of the populace is relatively well off. This then introduces the theory that George Orwell addressed in 1984: that tyrannical states, as an institution, eventually degenerate into doing nothing but attending to their "core objective" of self-preservation at all costs, and will purposely do things to keep the majority of the population perpetually poor so that the discrepancies of relative wealth can be used as a power mechanism (most people won't be bothered to think about higher-order abstract social constructs like "government" if they're too busy worrying about job stability or even worse, where their next meal will come from). In furtherance of this "1984" approach to subduing the population, consider Modi's (and other politicians in that general area) constant "Oh no, another border skirmish with "the enemy" ... right around the times of internal political turmoil – basically, a convenient excuse to distract the internal populace and redirect it's attention to external "threats" to cultural homogeneity. So then, as (for example in this case, but not at all exclusive to, as this tends to happen to ALL institutions – for example Universities of "Higher Learning" that wind up hoarding donations intended to help students in increasingly massive investment funds that sometimes rival professional Wall Street institutions) the Indian government degenerates into simply securing the primary (if unspoken of) directive of "continual self-preservation" ... the very subject of the government's "governing", ie, the general populace ... becomes a factor external to the Indian government itself (as well as its law-enforcement mechanisms). Now, what is that "external factor" of the general populace itself most likely to be viewed as? 1.) An external aspect of the internal reality of government and it's mechanisms that needs to be further integrated 2.) An external oddity that can be viewed as an item of curiosity during times when the government has no particular urgent matters to attend to, or ignored when it does have other, more urgent matters (such as self-preservation) to attend to 3.) A possible threat to the continuity of "keeping things as they are"?
- wolverine876 4y ago
  > What laws, written by who, for whose benefit, and what order, and again, for who? Written by the people of India through their democratic process. It's not a mystery or of questionable legitimacy.
  - GWBullshit 4y ago
    > Written by the people of India through their democratic process. It's not a mystery or of questionable legitimacy. India has an illiteracy rate of nearly 1/4, and one of the highest among adults on the planet: https://world.time.com/2014/01/29/indian-adult-illiteracy/ https://world.time.com/2014/01/29/indian-adult-illiteracy/ I HIGHLY doubt that that segment of Indian society had ANYTHING to do with the writing of any laws. Likewise, it's doubtful they were minded as the intended primary beneficiaries of such laws when they were written by a minute segment of the remaining 3/4 of Indian society, keeping in mind that many members of that remaining 3/4 ALSO complain of systematically-rampant corruption.