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Mitsubishi's products seem to be mini-split systems[1]. --> EDIT: Or maybe not... they seem to offer forced-air too. <-- The DOE challenge is for ducted syste

Mitsubishi's products seem to be mini-split systems[1]. --> EDIT: Or maybe not... they seem to offer forced-air too. <-- The DOE challenge is for ducted systems. Their site[2] says: > The Challenge is currently focused on residential, centrally ducted, electric-only HPs. The DOE challenge also has other requirements[3] that I don't know if the Mitsubishi systems satisfy. It requires certain levels of efficiency and "grid interactivity" (meaning Energy Star "demand response"[4] where your utility can temporarily tweak your thermostat settings). --- [1] https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/residential/new-products https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/residential/new-products [2] https://www.energy.gov/eere/buildings/cchp-technology-challenge-specifications https://www.energy.gov/eere/buildings/cchp-technology-challe... [3] https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021-10/bto-cchp-tech-challenge-spec-102521.pdf https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021-10/bto-cchp-... [4] https://www.energystar.gov/sites/default/files/ENERGY%20STAR%20Version%206.0%20Central%20Air%20Conditioner%20and%20Heat%20Pump%20Final%20Specification%20and%20Partner%20Commitments.pdf https://www.energystar.gov/sites/default/files/ENERGY%20STAR...

R0b0t1 4y ago
Kind of a shame, ducted heating has a lot of issues, but is the best for retrofit I guess.
oneplane 4y ago
I wonder why ducted systems were part of the requirements, is it because it's just aimed at the USA and then mostly at adoptability for existing systems (which seems to be ducted mostly)? I only have anecdotal experience and no numbers to back that up, but it's the only reason I can come up with that would put such a restriction in place. I'd say rip the ducts out and just use split systems but I imagine other people have thought about that and figured it's not the best way to go. (or at last not in the US)
- pkulak 4y ago
  Yes, because nearly every house in cold climates is ducted, and we’re trying to get people off oil heating quickly, easily, and cheaply. Popping a new heat exchanger in an existing furnace is stupid simple compared to running coolant lines to new, wall-mounted exchangers all over the house.
  - Gibbon1 4y ago
    I think that's true, if the ducts exist already that's simplest and cheapest. If they don't mini-split type systems are. But I suspect that long term those are going to be a pain in the butt because you have a lot of failure points.
    - pbourke 4y ago
      Mini splits seem to be pretty reliable. They’re very common outside of North America. Most of the leading manufacturers seem to be from Japan (Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, Daikin)
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Hydronic heat distribution (baseboard and radiators) is quite common in New England.
    - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      Not in any construction in the last 50 years.
    - pkulak 4y ago
      Sorry, meant to mean "in the US", since this was an American Government competition.
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        New England is part of the US.
gwittel 4y ago
Many of the Mitsubishi heat pumps work with central ducted systems just fine. I have one (replaced a central gas heat, electric AC system). It’s just a different air handler but the heat pump was the same as would have been used in a mini-split install. When cross shopping the Mitsubishi vs Trane, the Mitsubishi was miles ahead. I didn’t even get the most cold weather efficient option (not needed for my climate).
- adrianmonk 4y ago
  Oh, you must be right. I was finally able to find this on Mitsubishi's site: https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/residential/products/ducted-air-handler?modelID=SVZ https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/residential/products/ducte... And that says it's compatible with some "hyper-heat" outdoor units. So apparently they do offer both.
- philips 4y ago
  How did you find a Mitsubishi installer? I like the product but couldn’t find a contractor in the Portland Oregon area.
  - gwittel 4y ago
    I used Mitsubishis site to find the local “diamond” contractors (those factory trained and do enough volume). Then cross referenced vs yelp. https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/find-a-contractor https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/find-a-contractor I see a few in Portland and several in nearby zip codes. Hopefully one can work for you. There are different tiers of “diamond” so you can compare if the difference matters to you. One thing that’s a bit different is the air handler and outside compressor run on one circuit (mine is a 3 ton unit). So there’s a power line between the 2 units. That threw off our city inspector. But it works out nice since I now have an extra 20A breaker free :)
    - philips 4y ago
      Thanks! Do you have the technical docs with the efficiency curves for the Mitsubishi ducted systems? I can’t find the materials amongst all the marketing. For example this is the Carrier Infinity 24 we are considering. https://d1049ui2fjityy.cloudfront.net/userfiles/inriver/documents/dp/30/-4/product%20data%20-%2025vna4-03pd.pdf https://d1049ui2fjityy.cloudfront.net/userfiles/inriver/docu...

R0b0t1 4y ago

Kind of a shame, ducted heating has a lot of issues, but is the best for retrofit I guess.

oneplane 4y ago

I wonder why ducted systems were part of the requirements, is it because it's just aimed at the USA and then mostly at adoptability for existing systems (which seems to be ducted mostly)? I only have anecdotal experience and no numbers to back that up, but it's the only reason I can come up with that would put such a restriction in place. I'd say rip the ducts out and just use split systems but I imagine other people have thought about that and figured it's not the best way to go. (or at last not in the US)

pkulak 4y ago
Yes, because nearly every house in cold climates is ducted, and we’re trying to get people off oil heating quickly, easily, and cheaply. Popping a new heat exchanger in an existing furnace is stupid simple compared to running coolant lines to new, wall-mounted exchangers all over the house.
- Gibbon1 4y ago
  I think that's true, if the ducts exist already that's simplest and cheapest. If they don't mini-split type systems are. But I suspect that long term those are going to be a pain in the butt because you have a lot of failure points.
  - pbourke 4y ago
    Mini splits seem to be pretty reliable. They’re very common outside of North America. Most of the leading manufacturers seem to be from Japan (Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, Daikin)
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Hydronic heat distribution (baseboard and radiators) is quite common in New England.
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    Not in any construction in the last 50 years.
  - pkulak 4y ago
    Sorry, meant to mean "in the US", since this was an American Government competition.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      New England is part of the US.

gwittel 4y ago

Many of the Mitsubishi heat pumps work with central ducted systems just fine. I have one (replaced a central gas heat, electric AC system). It’s just a different air handler but the heat pump was the same as would have been used in a mini-split install. When cross shopping the Mitsubishi vs Trane, the Mitsubishi was miles ahead. I didn’t even get the most cold weather efficient option (not needed for my climate).

adrianmonk 4y ago
Oh, you must be right. I was finally able to find this on Mitsubishi's site: https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/residential/products/ducted-air-handler?modelID=SVZ https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/residential/products/ducte... And that says it's compatible with some "hyper-heat" outdoor units. So apparently they do offer both.
philips 4y ago
How did you find a Mitsubishi installer? I like the product but couldn’t find a contractor in the Portland Oregon area.
- gwittel 4y ago
  I used Mitsubishis site to find the local “diamond” contractors (those factory trained and do enough volume). Then cross referenced vs yelp. https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/find-a-contractor https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/find-a-contractor I see a few in Portland and several in nearby zip codes. Hopefully one can work for you. There are different tiers of “diamond” so you can compare if the difference matters to you. One thing that’s a bit different is the air handler and outside compressor run on one circuit (mine is a 3 ton unit). So there’s a power line between the 2 units. That threw off our city inspector. But it works out nice since I now have an extra 20A breaker free :)
  - philips 4y ago
    Thanks! Do you have the technical docs with the efficiency curves for the Mitsubishi ducted systems? I can’t find the materials amongst all the marketing. For example this is the Carrier Infinity 24 we are considering. https://d1049ui2fjityy.cloudfront.net/userfiles/inriver/documents/dp/30/-4/product%20data%20-%2025vna4-03pd.pdf https://d1049ui2fjityy.cloudfront.net/userfiles/inriver/docu...