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Charge backs should also be less of an issue if the purchase is $1. Same with fraud. The stakes are lower the lower the amount. Who cares? It's not worth disp

Charge backs should also be less of an issue if the purchase is $1. Same with fraud. The stakes are lower the lower the amount. Who cares? It's not worth disputing. Fire the customer if it crosses a threshold.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> stakes are lower the lower the amount. Who cares? OP mentioned customer service. Pretty much any American can create 50+ hours of customer support and legal work for no reason at all in payments. Even an irate, clueless customer will waste an hour of your support staffs’ time.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  Just give them their money back and shadow ban them from using your store.
  - pixl97 4y ago
    And then you get the HN post about you banning some rather well known tech figure because when your system created the issue in the first place.
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      Stores can ban patrons that aren’t following specific rules :)
brendanyounger 4y ago
Having run a B2C business with recurring monthly payments around $15, I assure you that fraud goes UP with lower payment amounts. You preferentially attract the worst possible customers who bank with the lowest common denominator banks and they charge back like crazy. Some choice moments: "Please keep my service on, I only charged back because I needed to make rent this month", "I know that wasn't my card, but that b---- owes me money." And it's hard to fire these customers because they come back with a different card and fake names. They don't care that they're committing fraud; no one will prosecute them for $10 here, $20 there. The real promise of crypto is to provide a system with 0% low level fraud like this.
- cowtools 4y ago
  Well, in crypto there's still non-zero amounts of fraud if the merchant doesn't deliver their goods or if the sender executes double spend attacks. But theoretical double-spend attacks aside, almost all transactions require some minimal level trust between the merchant and the customer regardless of payment system. In this sense, Cryptocurrency doesn't prevent fraud completely but it does severely limit the extent and direction of fraud.
- gjvnq 4y ago
  > And it's hard to fire these customers because they come back with a different card and fake names. Perhaps it is time to start asking for government IDs before accessing customer service.
  - UncleEntity 4y ago
    How would that work if you validly didn’t make the charge or were charged incorrectly and were calling to give them a chance to fix things? I once had someone enter my zip code as the payment amount and completely drained my bank account at a time in my life when I somewhat enjoyed eating and if they told me I would have to send them a copy of a government issued ID before they would even talk to me I don’t even know what would have happened. Nothing good I can tell you.
- omegalulw 4y ago
  And these systems exist because sellers do fraud too, merchants that don't ship after taking payment, etc. With irreversible payments through crypto you are just pushing all the risk on customers. That will never fly.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    If the customer does not trust the merchant, they simply don't make the payment with crypto. Why, oh why is it so hard to understand the concept of multiple alternatives?
    - 4y ago
devwastaken 4y ago
Organizations are incapable of properly dealing with "firing the customer" in that manner. You're talking about hundreds of office employees with generic technical knowledge. This ultimately ends up in firing the wrong customers, and when those customers end up being big, your company gets a poor reputation and lack of revenue. Therefore eating the cost is the most profitable outcome.
maccard 4y ago
This is a very naive view. Stripe have an excellent page [0] on why this doesn't work. The short summary is that each chargeback will cost you $15 (plus returning the transaction), and if you have more than 100 fraudulent transactions in a month you get put on a monitoring list and if you don't bring the number down your account will be suspended. The stakes are very high for the person accepting a merchant agreement with Visa and MasterCard. [0] https://stripe.com/docs/disputes/monitoring-programs https://stripe.com/docs/disputes/monitoring-programs
Brystephor 4y ago
You can get fined and kicked off the payment network if your business has an excessive number of chargebacks. The chargebacks measurement is the number of chargebacks, not the amount of dollars chargedback. These fines can be greater than $100,000 USD. Being kicked off a network such as Visa or MasterCard would be even worse.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> stakes are lower the lower the amount. Who cares? OP mentioned customer service. Pretty much any American can create 50+ hours of customer support and legal work for no reason at all in payments. Even an irate, clueless customer will waste an hour of your support staffs’ time.

mensetmanusman 4y ago
Just give them their money back and shadow ban them from using your store.
- pixl97 4y ago
  And then you get the HN post about you banning some rather well known tech figure because when your system created the issue in the first place.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    Stores can ban patrons that aren’t following specific rules :)

brendanyounger 4y ago

Having run a B2C business with recurring monthly payments around $15, I assure you that fraud goes UP with lower payment amounts. You preferentially attract the worst possible customers who bank with the lowest common denominator banks and they charge back like crazy. Some choice moments: "Please keep my service on, I only charged back because I needed to make rent this month", "I know that wasn't my card, but that b---- owes me money." And it's hard to fire these customers because they come back with a different card and fake names. They don't care that they're committing fraud; no one will prosecute them for $10 here, $20 there. The real promise of crypto is to provide a system with 0% low level fraud like this.

cowtools 4y ago
Well, in crypto there's still non-zero amounts of fraud if the merchant doesn't deliver their goods or if the sender executes double spend attacks. But theoretical double-spend attacks aside, almost all transactions require some minimal level trust between the merchant and the customer regardless of payment system. In this sense, Cryptocurrency doesn't prevent fraud completely but it does severely limit the extent and direction of fraud.
gjvnq 4y ago
> And it's hard to fire these customers because they come back with a different card and fake names. Perhaps it is time to start asking for government IDs before accessing customer service.
- UncleEntity 4y ago
  How would that work if you validly didn’t make the charge or were charged incorrectly and were calling to give them a chance to fix things? I once had someone enter my zip code as the payment amount and completely drained my bank account at a time in my life when I somewhat enjoyed eating and if they told me I would have to send them a copy of a government issued ID before they would even talk to me I don’t even know what would have happened. Nothing good I can tell you.
omegalulw 4y ago
And these systems exist because sellers do fraud too, merchants that don't ship after taking payment, etc. With irreversible payments through crypto you are just pushing all the risk on customers. That will never fly.
- rglullis 4y ago
  If the customer does not trust the merchant, they simply don't make the payment with crypto. Why, oh why is it so hard to understand the concept of multiple alternatives?
  - 4y ago

devwastaken 4y ago

Organizations are incapable of properly dealing with "firing the customer" in that manner. You're talking about hundreds of office employees with generic technical knowledge. This ultimately ends up in firing the wrong customers, and when those customers end up being big, your company gets a poor reputation and lack of revenue. Therefore eating the cost is the most profitable outcome.

maccard 4y ago

This is a very naive view. Stripe have an excellent page [0] on why this doesn't work. The short summary is that each chargeback will cost you $15 (plus returning the transaction), and if you have more than 100 fraudulent transactions in a month you get put on a monitoring list and if you don't bring the number down your account will be suspended. The stakes are very high for the person accepting a merchant agreement with Visa and MasterCard. [0] https://stripe.com/docs/disputes/monitoring-programs https://stripe.com/docs/disputes/monitoring-programs

Brystephor 4y ago

You can get fined and kicked off the payment network if your business has an excessive number of chargebacks. The chargebacks measurement is the number of chargebacks, not the amount of dollars chargedback. These fines can be greater than $100,000 USD. Being kicked off a network such as Visa or MasterCard would be even worse.