6 ms·
How the Ballpoint Pen Killed Cursive
- iancmceachern 4y agoFountain pens are awesome
- Beltalowda 4y agoI had to use them at school; my hands and clothes were almost permanently ink-stained. I do not miss them.
- tomtheelder 4y agoThat was my experience as a kid, but using them as an adult that’s never the case. I think it was a combination of cheap pens and a child’s carelessness.
- wincy 4y agoPens in general are terrible for me as a left handed person. The only ones I like are the Frixion pens, as their ink seems to actually dry fast enough to not cover my hand in ink. Really writing as a left handed person feels like a fool’s errand. It just wasn’t made for me.
- the_only_law 4y agoPencils do it for me too, the graphite rubs off on the side of my palm and onto the paper. I rarely find myself physical writing much nowadays though.
- winety 4y agoAs for some solutions: The choice of the writing instrument helps a lot. While fountain pens feel amazing to write with, one looks like a smurf after writing with one. Hard pencils are one of the better choices. Writing slower also helps a bit. A “different” solution would be to write from right to left. I’ve tried it multiple times — both writing with mirrored symbols and writing non-mirrored symbols. The positive was that my hands were a lot cleaner. The negatives were that others couldn’t read what I wrote and that I looked as a crazy person.
- wincy 4y agoHah I took my notes in high school this way too! It came surprisingly naturally and wasn’t even that difficult for me to learn to read. Maybe I should just start taking notes backwards in business meetings, since nobody else reads them anyway.
- iancmceachern 4y agoI've had a higher end one as an adult as my main daily pen for years now and have yet to have a single spill (knock on wood).
- rg111 4y agoI have several higher end fountain pens that are my daily drivers. And I have zero incidents as well. I own several Lamy, Pilot, and Platinum. If you ever write with a Pilot Custom 823 on decent paper, you will never be able to go back. (If you enjoy the friction in writing, you need to try Lamy Al-Star/Safari fine nib, or Pilot Metropolitan fine nib. Medium nibs are smooth and some people don't like that.) And even as the prices are high, they do last literal lifetimes.
- molbioguy 4y agoAny suggestions for good lower cost pens?
- xhkkffbf 4y agoI've gotten some cheap pens from China via Amazon and eBay. They're not as nice as the expensive pens, but for the price they're amazing. Some of the Lamy Safari knock offs are only a few dollars.
- molbioguy 4y agoAt that price, sampling becomes very reasonable. Sometimes knock offs can be perfectly usable, though I've had my share of disappointments when I didn't expect a fake.
- iancmceachern 4y agoLamy safari Kweco sport Pilot metropolitan Those are all 20 bucks or so and are refillable Platinum preppy's are not refillable but were my first fountain pen, can be had in many ink colors, and are about 5 bucks.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- gadders 4y agoEspecially with an italic nib.
- quanto 4y agoWriting utensils definitely influence scripts. One tidbit I like is the evolution of the Burmese script. The Burmese script was originally square format but became round and cursive due to the popular use of palm leaves (and others) as a medium: straight lines would rip the leaves, so softer round strokes were preferred [1]. The round cursive style is in stark contrast to modern Devanagari (India) where the strong overhanging line is a core feature [2] despite both scripts descend one way or another from the Brahmi script [3]. As for the OP, ballpoints have come a long way such that one could easily find a ballpoint that is sensitive enough for a Palmerian style (but perhaps not Spencerian as that genuinely requires varying line thickness). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmese_alphabet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmese_alphabet [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devanagari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devanagari [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmic_scripts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmic_scripts
- Beltalowda 4y agoA bit of an aside, I really like the Ethiopian Wikipedia page on Amharic[1], an Ethiopian language written in the Geʽez script. Traditionally ፡ is used as a word separator in the Geʽez script to write Amharic (and ። as a full stop, looks like : and :: in case your browser doesn't render the fonts). But more recently the space has become popular, probably because it's easier on computers and due to English/Western influences. The nice thing about that Wikipedia page is that the first three – and presumably the oldest – paragraphs use the classic ፡, after which it mostly switches to spaces in the newer texts. Traditionalists will think it's horrible and you should stick to the "old ways", but languages and scripts have been changing ever since they were invented, and you can see the evolution of a writing system right there on a single page, which I think is kinda neat. (Note I do not speak Amharic, I "discovered" this while researching different writing systems for some code I was writing). [1]: https://am.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%8A%A0%E1%88%9B%E1%88%AD%E1%8A%9B https://am.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%8A%A0%E1%88%9B%E1%88%AD%E1...
- rchowe 4y agoWhen I was in school, I wondered why my hand hurt from writing so much. I switched to gel pens and my hand fatigue went way down. We put up with a lot in the name of cost. The thin blue Bic pens are much cheaper, but when I have to use one I really hate it.
- LorenPechtel 4y agoYeah, gel pens are vastly superior to standard ball points. However, the fundamental issue of not needing to write as much as we used to I believe is dominant. I have abandoned using cursive because it takes practice to keep it readable--and I simply don't write enough. I can type faster on a keyboard than I can write with a pen and what's in the computer is more useful--paper is only of value when you need to do something other than make letters. At this point most of my use of a pen is filling out forms.
- syntheweave 4y agoI've been spending time drawing and invested in an angled desk surface(a Saiji portable floor desk) and I've found that when I use this surface, at the proper height, with the proper grip for inking(which is relatively relaxed and avoids contact with the bones of the knuckles), and using fineliner pens, I can write some fantastic cursive letters, despite not having practiced it in decades. I don't even remember all the letter forms. So I think the story we face is one of gradual degradation of the average condition in which writing is done: the pens are part of it because ballpoints train you into a tighter grip with more pressure. But equally as important is that we've moved away from desks specifically for writing and drawing towards generic flat surfaces, so nobody realizes what they lose by not having such a surface or what kinds of compensations they are making. If you have the height and angle correct, a relaxed grip is easier and you can make more accurate marks from the shoulder, with decent control over swooping curves. It's the single easiest way to boost your draftsmanship and penmanship.
- usrn 4y agoI really think ball point pens are the worst. Personally I like mechanical pencils but I would even prefer crayons. At least crayons work reliably.
- cafard 4y agoMy cursive was dead on arrival, or so I recall. It has been almost sixty years since I was introduced to it, so my recollections are vague. I thought that we might have started with pencil before moving on to fountain pens. I'm not sure how the southpaws, at least ones with fine-motor skills as bad as mine, kept the ink off their wrists.
- gerikson 4y agoThis is hardly the first time a cursive style has died out: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BCtterlin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BCtterlin>
- somat 4y agoI would say that computers(and to a lesser degree typewriters) are what killed cursive. Cursive is the sloppy form of latin characters that you use when you have to write by hand a lot, the reduced specification on word separation and form really help the letters get out quick. see shorthand for an even quicker modern engineered version of this. When you no longer have to manually produce a large body of text(you have your machine spirit do the writing for you) It no longer makes as much sense to keep the cursive forms around. A cultural loss for sure but in the same vein as knowing how to skin a rabbit. Some languages (arabic comes to mind) have had their cursive form completely replace their block form(I actually don't know if arabic ever had a block form, it would certainly be incorrect if you tried to use a block form of arabic today). Unfortunately the same slurred features that make cursive so quick to write also make it difficult for the machine spirit to handle. Now I want to look up arabic typewriters.
- squirt 4y ago> Cursive is the sloppy form of latin characters that you use when you have to write by hand a lot, the reduced specification on word separation and form really help the letters get out quick. This is a an incorrect view on the derivation of cursive, as well as a fundamental misunderstanding in the precise and systemic nature of script. Source: professional penman & calligrapher.
- vanderZwan 4y agoWhile I believe you I also would appreciate to know what the correct answer is then. Even an oversimplified summary version woull be great
- squirt 4y agoObvious disclaimer: not a historian. Though I can absolutely provide an simplified summary of both the development of present day cursive script. European calligraphy was principally practiced as a means to produce and maintain religious texts[0]. From italic[1] calligraphic styles in the 1500's, we end up with Roundhand[2] in the 1600's. For reproductions/printing, it's often cut into a copper plate. Hence the common name for this family of scripts: Copperplate. It makes its way to America, and eventually becomes Spencerian[3] script (mid/late 1800's). Spencerian has an emphasis on a greater freedom of movement, and personal style. The script is designed to be highly legible, with a systematic approach to writing. There are a core set of fundamental strokes, from which you derive the alphabet. Instruction in this style is dominated by drills. This evolves into business penmanship[4] (early 1900's). Most known by the Palmer method, though Palmer was a rather poor penman for the time. Business penmanship removes the variability in line thickness of Spencerian, and reduces the flourish particularly found in capitals. The cursive writing taught in most schools through the late 70's & 80's was the Palmer method. Both scripts were designed for a quick, yet precise, flowing script. Principally for business (bookkeeping, accounting) and correspondence. My contention, as expressed in another comment, lies in the failures of modern educators to understand and teach the script. Not script itself. I challenge anyone to find sloppiness in the instruction from Spencer[5] or Zaner[4]. I realize these are not necessarily the same contemporary examples of cursive you'd see, however the fundamentals of cursive education today is directly rooted in those same texts. Even my elementary school cursive instruction (late 1990's) featured the same drills as can be found in the Zaner book. ref. [0] https://digi.vatlib.it/view/bav_pal_lat_1811/0221 https://digi.vatlib.it/view/bav_pal_lat_1811/0221 [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Houghton_TypW_525.24.162_-_La_operina%2C_2.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Houghton... [2] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Bickham-letter.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Bickham-... [3] https://www.iampeth.com/sites/default/files/artwork/Musselman_letter.jpg https://www.iampeth.com/sites/default/files/artwork/Musselma... [4] https://archive.org/details/armmovementmetho00zane https://archive.org/details/armmovementmetho00zane [5] https://archive.org/details/newspenceriancom00auth https://archive.org/details/newspenceriancom00auth
- DerekL 4y agoTitle needs (2015).
- _emacsomancer_ 4y agoAnd it had an HN discussion then too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10141874 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10141874
- squirt 4y agoI find it very hard to buy into the core premise of this article. Namely: > Sassoon’s analysis of how we’re taught to hold pens makes a much stronger case for the role of the ballpoint in the decline of cursive. She explains that the type of pen grip taught in contemporary grade school is the same grip that’s been used for generations ... modern pens requires that they be placed at a greater, more upright angle to the paper—a position that’s generally uncomfortable with a traditional pen hold. I was lucky enough in college to study calligraphy & penmanship through an independent study program. Most days I would be at my desk writing for six to ten hours. It was an obsession. After graduating, my practice continued at this pace for the next four years. I have experienced zero cramping or discomfort in my hand. In that time, I've used an array of pens. From traditionally cured and cut quills, dip pens, to modern fountain pens. Ultimately, the vast majority of my practice was done with a ten cent Bic pen. They're cheap, reliable, and write quickly & consistently. The actual difference between writing then vs. now has less to do with the pen itself, and more with how it's handled. Your poor, unpracticed, overly-tense grip on the pen is what causes discomfort. As does manipulating the pen with the fingers, rather than the larger muscles in your arm/shoulder. Penmanship education, I'd argue, has been non-existent in America for well over a full generation. The further you go from the so-called "Golden Age of Penmanship" (~1860-1920), the more distance there is from real, quality professors of penmanship. Institutional knowledge is lost, and present day teachers are merely parroting back things they were told to be true, rather than educating based on a deep-seated practical knowledge. Penmanship, and thus cursive, was incrementally killed by ever-easier ways of putting text to paper. Typewriters -> word processors -> computers -> cellphones.
- Centigonal 4y agoI can't disagree with your lived experience, but I have to say that mine has been different. I've never taken a penmanship class, but I did write almost exclusively with fountain pens for about four years at the end of high school and the start of my undergrad. For me, writing with ballpoints required more pressure and a more upright grip, while fountain pens love to write in one flowing line at an angle to the page. When writing with a fountain pen, I will tend very naturally to cursive. With a ballpoint, cursive is a real chore. I do agree with your last point, though: OneNote has replaced my fountain pens and ballpoints nearly completely at this point.
- Isamu 4y agoCursive was still taught when I was in school. With ball point pens. This was the case for many years after dip pens were retired. They stopped teaching cursive handwriting. Full stop.
- Perenti 4y agoWe had to use nib-based pens until 1st Form, when we were allowed biros. Suddenly my clothes were no longer soaked in ink, my pages were no longer Rorshach inspired artworks. And my writing, for the first time ever, was legible. This is what killed cursive, it's bloody hard to read.