4 ms·

Not to get bogged down in words, but you are saying, "I stand against Stallman," but isn't it better to just focus on the ideas? He is a man of ideas, after al

Not to get bogged down in words, but you are saying, "I stand against Stallman," but isn't it better to just focus on the ideas? He is a man of ideas, after all. If you disagree on the ideas, you could still be friends with the man (and he is an incredibly nice and friendly guy who treats people better than he gets treated, that's for sure.) Just curious: by any chance, are you "standing against Stallman" while simultaneously using his work? I could not do my job without using Stallman's work in some form (in many forms in fact).

cperciva 15y ago
If you disagree on the ideas, you could still be friends with the man Can you? Is it possible to be friends with someone who says that anyone who disagrees with his ideas is evil? I'm an atheist, yet I have no problem with being friends with people who are religious. I do, however, have a problem with being friends with someone who ends every conversation with "... and you're going to burn in hell for an eternity". RMS' refusal to accept the possibility that any position other than his own might have value puts him firmly into that camp of people I don't want to have anything to do with.
- rjbond3rd 15y ago
  > I don't want to have anything to do with Gotcha, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but do you use his work? And if so, are you okay with using his work, but disagreeing with his ideas?
  - gbhn 15y ago
    I don't want to speak for anyone, but while Stallman definitely thinks that using work created from a differing ideological perspective is seriously problematic, one shouldn't assume the same from people who disagree with him.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - meric 15y ago
      For someone who claimed in a parent comment, "...puts him firmly into that camp of people I don't want to have anything to do with", I would. "I put [X] firmly into that camp of people I don't want to have anything to do with, but I am fine with using [X]'s work for my everyday activities."
  - cperciva 15y ago
    *but do you use his work? I don't think so. I certainly use a bunch of GNU code, but as far as I know he didn't contribute to any of it. It's entirely possible though.
    - meric 15y ago
      Do you use gcc?
      - cperciva 15y ago
        Nope, I'm firmly in the llvm/clang camp.
- bad_user 15y ago
  "... and you're going to burn in hell for an eternity" I never heard him say anything like that in his speeches. Maybe I have a short memory, unless you mean the short NO answers he gives to people that ask whether bending the rules a little is OK to do or maybe you're referring to how he hasn't given up on correcting people about the GNU/Linux naming. I also heard multiple times about how he holds the FSF members to these higher standards. But have you ever asked a Christian if you'll go to hell for being an atheist? The answer is pretty predictable. And compared to Christianity, a faith based on non-falsifiable beliefs, Stalman was proven right again and again. Maybe he just got tired of repeating everything like a broken record? Maybe, just maybe, he worked for his whole life trying to build the GNU operating system without the results he wanted? And to put salt to the injury, OS X built on top of those tools. Wouldn't you be pretty pissed about it? He's not young anymore, he may not have the same patience or pragmatism of 20 year old. He does sound like an old grump. His idealism is kind of obnoxious. But regardless of that, he's one of those people that pushes the human race forward. It's OK, you don't have to be friends with him to give him a little respect.
  - colomon 15y ago
    "But have you ever asked a Christian if you'll go to hell for being an atheist? The answer is pretty predictable." I'm guessing you haven't asked a very wide variety of Christians that question? Because in my experience you'd get a pretty wide variety of different answers...
    - bad_user 15y ago
      You must from the US and it shows :) From my experience there are 2 kinds of Christians: those that believe in the New Testament and those that reinterpret it here and there to suit their own feelings about what is right and wrong (after all, a father wouldn't punish his children for all eternity and why punish a good man, even if he's an atheist?). However the New Testament doesn't really leave room for interpretation on this one. Non-believers will burn, says so Jesus. And if you ask any priest from any of the major Christian churches, like Catholic, Eastern Orthodox (my own), Protestant, the answer will be without doubt Yes. Of course, there's always Jehova's witnesses, that simply rewrote the bible, but I don't think that counts. There's nothing wrong with inventing your own religion based on a good set of moral values, especially casting away anything that leads to hatred of other people (dare I say it, Jesus would probably agree) and I do that myself, however I wouldn't shout from the roof-tops that I'm a Christian as that would be a little bending of the truth.
- borism 15y ago
  Can you? Is it possible to be friends with someone who says that anyone who disagrees with his ideas is evil? Yes. Depends on definition of evil, I guess. P.S. in Stallman case I guess definition of evil goes something like this: "I think with your rules you're doing harm to long term development of intellectual property like software. You're evil and you will burn in hell." Pretty mild definition of evil in my opinion?
- SimHacker 15y ago
  Stallman is an atheist, but he uses religious expressions and extreme caricatures like that to be funny. If you're mortally offended, you're taking it the wrong way. He can be very witty, if your skin is thick enough to appreciate his sense of humor. At a science fiction convention in the 80's, Mike and I (who worked for "Evil Software Hoarder" Unipress on Gosling's "Evil" commercial version of Emacs) ran across RMS: Mike said: "Hello, Richard. I heard a rumor that your house burned down. That's terrible! Is it true?" RMS replied right back: "Yes, it did. But where you work, you probably heard about it in advance." Everybody laughed. It was a joke! Nobody's feelings were hurt. He's a funny guy, quick on his feet!
chc 15y ago
Stallman didn't focus on Steve Jobs' ideas, so one can hardly be blamed for holding him to his own standards.
- nkassis 15y ago
  You misunderstood his position, he clarified it later and corrected the quotation he used.
  - chc 15y ago
    AFAIK, he corrected the quotation, but did not take back anything he said and even insisted that the misquotation "did not alter the meaning." He did say "My feelings about Jobs as a person are not strong," but nonetheless stood by his gloating that Jobs — the person — is gone, and continued to attack him by name rather than just the abstract ideas Jobs stood for.
    - meric 15y ago
      That is false. He wasn't glad Jobs, the person, died, but he was glad Jobs, the CEO of Apple, is gone.
nikatwork 15y ago
So if I use a tool or product, I must automatically agree with the maker's ideology? I've used John Galliano aftershave, and I'm no racist.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]

cperciva 15y ago

If you disagree on the ideas, you could still be friends with the man Can you? Is it possible to be friends with someone who says that anyone who disagrees with his ideas is evil? I'm an atheist, yet I have no problem with being friends with people who are religious. I do, however, have a problem with being friends with someone who ends every conversation with "... and you're going to burn in hell for an eternity". RMS' refusal to accept the possibility that any position other than his own might have value puts him firmly into that camp of people I don't want to have anything to do with.

rjbond3rd 15y ago
> I don't want to have anything to do with Gotcha, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but do you use his work? And if so, are you okay with using his work, but disagreeing with his ideas?
- gbhn 15y ago
  I don't want to speak for anyone, but while Stallman definitely thinks that using work created from a differing ideological perspective is seriously problematic, one shouldn't assume the same from people who disagree with him.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - meric 15y ago
    For someone who claimed in a parent comment, "...puts him firmly into that camp of people I don't want to have anything to do with", I would. "I put [X] firmly into that camp of people I don't want to have anything to do with, but I am fine with using [X]'s work for my everyday activities."
- cperciva 15y ago
  *but do you use his work? I don't think so. I certainly use a bunch of GNU code, but as far as I know he didn't contribute to any of it. It's entirely possible though.
  - meric 15y ago
    Do you use gcc?
    - cperciva 15y ago
      Nope, I'm firmly in the llvm/clang camp.
bad_user 15y ago
"... and you're going to burn in hell for an eternity" I never heard him say anything like that in his speeches. Maybe I have a short memory, unless you mean the short NO answers he gives to people that ask whether bending the rules a little is OK to do or maybe you're referring to how he hasn't given up on correcting people about the GNU/Linux naming. I also heard multiple times about how he holds the FSF members to these higher standards. But have you ever asked a Christian if you'll go to hell for being an atheist? The answer is pretty predictable. And compared to Christianity, a faith based on non-falsifiable beliefs, Stalman was proven right again and again. Maybe he just got tired of repeating everything like a broken record? Maybe, just maybe, he worked for his whole life trying to build the GNU operating system without the results he wanted? And to put salt to the injury, OS X built on top of those tools. Wouldn't you be pretty pissed about it? He's not young anymore, he may not have the same patience or pragmatism of 20 year old. He does sound like an old grump. His idealism is kind of obnoxious. But regardless of that, he's one of those people that pushes the human race forward. It's OK, you don't have to be friends with him to give him a little respect.
- colomon 15y ago
  "But have you ever asked a Christian if you'll go to hell for being an atheist? The answer is pretty predictable." I'm guessing you haven't asked a very wide variety of Christians that question? Because in my experience you'd get a pretty wide variety of different answers...
  - bad_user 15y ago
    You must from the US and it shows :) From my experience there are 2 kinds of Christians: those that believe in the New Testament and those that reinterpret it here and there to suit their own feelings about what is right and wrong (after all, a father wouldn't punish his children for all eternity and why punish a good man, even if he's an atheist?). However the New Testament doesn't really leave room for interpretation on this one. Non-believers will burn, says so Jesus. And if you ask any priest from any of the major Christian churches, like Catholic, Eastern Orthodox (my own), Protestant, the answer will be without doubt Yes. Of course, there's always Jehova's witnesses, that simply rewrote the bible, but I don't think that counts. There's nothing wrong with inventing your own religion based on a good set of moral values, especially casting away anything that leads to hatred of other people (dare I say it, Jesus would probably agree) and I do that myself, however I wouldn't shout from the roof-tops that I'm a Christian as that would be a little bending of the truth.
borism 15y ago
Can you? Is it possible to be friends with someone who says that anyone who disagrees with his ideas is evil? Yes. Depends on definition of evil, I guess. P.S. in Stallman case I guess definition of evil goes something like this: "I think with your rules you're doing harm to long term development of intellectual property like software. You're evil and you will burn in hell." Pretty mild definition of evil in my opinion?
SimHacker 15y ago
Stallman is an atheist, but he uses religious expressions and extreme caricatures like that to be funny. If you're mortally offended, you're taking it the wrong way. He can be very witty, if your skin is thick enough to appreciate his sense of humor. At a science fiction convention in the 80's, Mike and I (who worked for "Evil Software Hoarder" Unipress on Gosling's "Evil" commercial version of Emacs) ran across RMS: Mike said: "Hello, Richard. I heard a rumor that your house burned down. That's terrible! Is it true?" RMS replied right back: "Yes, it did. But where you work, you probably heard about it in advance." Everybody laughed. It was a joke! Nobody's feelings were hurt. He's a funny guy, quick on his feet!

chc 15y ago

Stallman didn't focus on Steve Jobs' ideas, so one can hardly be blamed for holding him to his own standards.

nkassis 15y ago
You misunderstood his position, he clarified it later and corrected the quotation he used.
- chc 15y ago
  AFAIK, he corrected the quotation, but did not take back anything he said and even insisted that the misquotation "did not alter the meaning." He did say "My feelings about Jobs as a person are not strong," but nonetheless stood by his gloating that Jobs — the person — is gone, and continued to attack him by name rather than just the abstract ideas Jobs stood for.
  - meric 15y ago
    That is false. He wasn't glad Jobs, the person, died, but he was glad Jobs, the CEO of Apple, is gone.

nikatwork 15y ago

So if I use a tool or product, I must automatically agree with the maker's ideology? I've used John Galliano aftershave, and I'm no racist.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]