4 ms·

All these money creating schemes highlight the need for a kind of money which nobody can create. I wonder if anybody has come up with a solution to this yet?

neonnoodle 4y ago
I have solved this with my crypto, Zilch. Zilch is pegged to zero, and no Zilch will ever be mined. The filly diluted market cap is zero.
- alangibson 4y ago
  I hope you're kidding, and I also hope you're totally serious.
- wslh 4y ago
  You can always create an NFT connected to Zilch that tries to capture value for your unique collectible.
  - alangibson 4y ago
    I'm creating an NFT for every unique point in the void of outer space. They'll be auctioned off denominated in Zilch.
- jfk13 4y ago
  Sounds a lot like ZeroStableCoin, discussed a few days ago at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31714556 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31714556.
- mirntyfirty 4y ago
  Does it incorporate microdistributed PoV (Proof of value) that can only be obtained through QHC (quantum hash cryptography), offering the best path to FEV (fiat escape velocity)? /s
- nayuki 4y ago
  What is the price per coin? NaN?
  - heywoodlh 4y ago
    Clearly, zero US dollars for Zilch. The math translates clearly.
- jl6 4y ago
  But if a crypto coin is never mined, how can it be hacked?
- alangibson 4y ago
  Can we call the smallest denomination the enso?
Retric 4y ago
The issue isn’t simply all creation of money being bad, it’s when these schemes get out of control. Thus, the issue is solved via currency reserve requirements. Crypto on the other hand can’t solve the problem because they can’t set laws so anyone can set up a Bank using on chain wallet(s) and then issue loans and offer interest on deposits etc.
halffaday 4y ago
Precious metals. Of course financial institutions often falsify their reserves. The real problem isn’t that no solution exists. The problem is that market makers only want to deal with exchange media that they can use for their own fraud.
addicted 4y ago
This is such a fundamental misunderstanding of what money is. Money is an IOU (it also ends up having other uses, but fundamentally that’s what it is). That’s fundamentally all it is. And it’s also a unit. It’s a technology that allows me to determine that if 5 chickens are worth 1 sheep, and 3 sheep are worth 1 cow, then 1 cow is worth 15 chickens, without ever having to spend a second to do any math. This is essential in a complex economy where there may be millions if not billions such conversions. Money that is useful for the purpose of smoothening the running of an economy has a few properties. 1) It’s value stays fairly stable. This means that people are confident spending money and receiving money that the value they agreed upon now will basically be the value tomorrow, so they don’t have to do additional work to figure out when they should make the transaction for optimal value (and since the optimal time is the opposite for both parties, it’s very difficult to find such a time and it always results in a win-lose situation). 2) It’s slightly inflationary. Money sitting under a mattress represents work that could be done that isn’t. This is a real waste of human output, because time is limited. So you want a slightly inflationary money to encourage spending and investment. 3) Money supply reflects the productive capacity of the economy. If the capacity of the economy grows, either due to more workers, or due to better productivity, the money supply needs to grow. Otherwise there will not be enough dollars to enable work to be done and we will waste human time and output simply because we don’t have enough of the means of exchange. All of this is a difficult balance to strike, which is why you need people controlling the flow of money. We may eventually come up with algorithms that could measure a variety of real world inputs, such as the prices of goods, working population, productivity, etc. that can do that without human input, but it’s not possible yet because we don’t know the economic rules of how things work, so it becomes a matter of almost trial and error guided by some basic economic rules.
- sparkie 4y ago
  Yes, money is a technology which allows you to determine the exchange rate of commodities, but money itself is also a commodity and is also subject to the forces of supply and demand. Big increases in the supply of money cause it to decline in value. If one coin is worth 15 chickens now, one coin is only worth 13 chickens in <12 months. Savings are necessary for a rainy day. Without adequate savings, you are one natural (or man-made) disaster away from starving. It is absolutely not a "waste of human output," to keep some aside, but is being responsible for oneself. Saving is not possible under high inflation, as the savings lose purchasing power too rapidly. Someone who wishes to save is forced to make risky investments just to maintain the purchasing power of what they previously laboured for.

neonnoodle 4y ago

I have solved this with my crypto, Zilch. Zilch is pegged to zero, and no Zilch will ever be mined. The filly diluted market cap is zero.

alangibson 4y ago
I hope you're kidding, and I also hope you're totally serious.
wslh 4y ago
You can always create an NFT connected to Zilch that tries to capture value for your unique collectible.
- alangibson 4y ago
  I'm creating an NFT for every unique point in the void of outer space. They'll be auctioned off denominated in Zilch.
jfk13 4y ago
Sounds a lot like ZeroStableCoin, discussed a few days ago at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31714556 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31714556.
mirntyfirty 4y ago
Does it incorporate microdistributed PoV (Proof of value) that can only be obtained through QHC (quantum hash cryptography), offering the best path to FEV (fiat escape velocity)? /s
nayuki 4y ago
What is the price per coin? NaN?
- heywoodlh 4y ago
  Clearly, zero US dollars for Zilch. The math translates clearly.
jl6 4y ago
But if a crypto coin is never mined, how can it be hacked?
alangibson 4y ago
Can we call the smallest denomination the enso?

Retric 4y ago

The issue isn’t simply all creation of money being bad, it’s when these schemes get out of control. Thus, the issue is solved via currency reserve requirements. Crypto on the other hand can’t solve the problem because they can’t set laws so anyone can set up a Bank using on chain wallet(s) and then issue loans and offer interest on deposits etc.

halffaday 4y ago

Precious metals. Of course financial institutions often falsify their reserves. The real problem isn’t that no solution exists. The problem is that market makers only want to deal with exchange media that they can use for their own fraud.

addicted 4y ago

This is such a fundamental misunderstanding of what money is. Money is an IOU (it also ends up having other uses, but fundamentally that’s what it is). That’s fundamentally all it is. And it’s also a unit. It’s a technology that allows me to determine that if 5 chickens are worth 1 sheep, and 3 sheep are worth 1 cow, then 1 cow is worth 15 chickens, without ever having to spend a second to do any math. This is essential in a complex economy where there may be millions if not billions such conversions. Money that is useful for the purpose of smoothening the running of an economy has a few properties. 1) It’s value stays fairly stable. This means that people are confident spending money and receiving money that the value they agreed upon now will basically be the value tomorrow, so they don’t have to do additional work to figure out when they should make the transaction for optimal value (and since the optimal time is the opposite for both parties, it’s very difficult to find such a time and it always results in a win-lose situation). 2) It’s slightly inflationary. Money sitting under a mattress represents work that could be done that isn’t. This is a real waste of human output, because time is limited. So you want a slightly inflationary money to encourage spending and investment. 3) Money supply reflects the productive capacity of the economy. If the capacity of the economy grows, either due to more workers, or due to better productivity, the money supply needs to grow. Otherwise there will not be enough dollars to enable work to be done and we will waste human time and output simply because we don’t have enough of the means of exchange. All of this is a difficult balance to strike, which is why you need people controlling the flow of money. We may eventually come up with algorithms that could measure a variety of real world inputs, such as the prices of goods, working population, productivity, etc. that can do that without human input, but it’s not possible yet because we don’t know the economic rules of how things work, so it becomes a matter of almost trial and error guided by some basic economic rules.

sparkie 4y ago
Yes, money is a technology which allows you to determine the exchange rate of commodities, but money itself is also a commodity and is also subject to the forces of supply and demand. Big increases in the supply of money cause it to decline in value. If one coin is worth 15 chickens now, one coin is only worth 13 chickens in <12 months. Savings are necessary for a rainy day. Without adequate savings, you are one natural (or man-made) disaster away from starving. It is absolutely not a "waste of human output," to keep some aside, but is being responsible for oneself. Saving is not possible under high inflation, as the savings lose purchasing power too rapidly. Someone who wishes to save is forced to make risky investments just to maintain the purchasing power of what they previously laboured for.