3 ms·

It's not fair to tie all criticism of rms to bullying. This whole dust-up appears to have been started by a reaction to a post by kottke in which it's not at a

by 3am 15y ago

It's not fair to tie all criticism of rms to bullying. This whole dust-up appears to have been started by a reaction to a post by kottke in which it's not at all clear to me that rms is even being mocked. I'm not denying rms gets unfairly criticized, or that bullying is bad (and the part about your son was poignant). But all criticism of rms is not bullying. In fact, since his position is so important, it would be wrong _not_ to hold him to a higher standard.

mechanical_fish 15y ago
Kottke was trying to start a reasoned debate about parrot husbandry, was he? That's an awfully generous reading. Though I can believe that Kottke didn't mean to instigate a mob (it is so easy to do by accident), there's no sense in pretending the mob isn't there, now. I'm not about to fuel the fire by linking to multiple people, many with large audiences, who have been poking fun at RMS's personal habits while pretending – not very convincingly – that they're doing so out of principle, but such links aren't hard to find at the moment. And, yes, we can all tell the difference between disagreeing with (or even joking about) RMS's very strong and sometimes very offbeat technical, legal, and political ideas... and making fun of his socks. The first is fine – it is something he invites – but the second is just rude.
- 3am 15y ago
  I didn't see an mean intent in it. Personally, I thought the parrot thing in the rider was noteworthy, amusing, and didn't reflect at all poorly on rms. To the contrary I found it personable and charming. I was still sore from his comments the day after Jobs passed, and this diffused the bad feelings a bit. I don't know who else is poking fun of him, or what they're saying. There is limited time in life and an inexhaustible supply of jerks on the internet.
- nasmorn 15y ago
  Really I only see rms as your typucal celebrity here whos in his case entirely earned fame has risen to his head because he lives in a bubble were people read his rider and say: ok i go look for someone with a parrot. If I did it everyone would assume it is a joke. tl;dr stallman is softwares axel rose no more no less
- msbarnett 15y ago
  > And, yes, we can all tell the difference between disagreeing with (or even joking about) RMS's very strong and sometimes very offbeat technical, legal, and political opinions and making fun of his socks. The first is fine – it is something he invites – but the second is just rude. Are we talking about the same Richard M Stallman who once wrote: > Could people please not use this list to announce information of no particular interest to the people on the list? Hundreds of thousands of babies are born every day. While the whole phenomenon is menacing, one of them by itself is not newsworthy. Nor is it a difficult achievement—even some fish can do it. (Now, if you were a seahorse, it would be more interesting, since it would be the male that gave birth.) > These birth announcements also spread the myth that having a baby is something to be proud of, which fuels natalist pressure, which leads to pollution, extinction of wildlife, poverty, and ultimately mass starvation. in response to someone mentioning the birth of their child? If we're going to have an intellectually honest conversation about bullying in the tech community and the separation of personal attacks from technical matters, let's not attempt to do so under the delusion that RMS only invites comments on technical and political matters and never engages in extremely insulting social attacks on others. RMS is and always has been a controversial extremist who has been more than willing to engage in personal attacks in service to the causes that interest him.
  - RickHull 15y ago
    > RMS is and always has been ... more than willing to engage in personal attacks in service to the causes that interest him. Can you cite something? Your above quotations are not personal attacks. He is explaining (poorly) that the chosen venue was not correct for the content being communicated. He is speaking in terms of principles and not attacking the person's identity.
    - msbarnett 15y ago
      His first sentence is a (slightly testy) comment that the emacs mailing list wasn't the right forum for a birth announcement. This didn't require telling the guy that the birth of his child was menacing, insignificant because it was accomplished by a female instead of a male, and complicit in mass starvation and genocide. The "wrong forum" content was just an incidental cover for a long-form attack on that person because it happened to push Stallman's buttons, and Stallman was in a position of power on the list from which he could conveniently abuse the poster without fear of repercussion. It's bullying every bit as much as the attacks on Stallman.
phillmv 15y ago
The part that bothers me is that I once went and saw an rms talk and within five minutes one thing was overwhelmingly clear to me. The dude clearly suffers from some kind of high functioning autism. Aspergers, whatever, it's just clear he doesn't think about social interactions the same way most other people do. Which given the kind of audience of nerds and geeks that he is front of I would expect to be a little bit more understanding or patient but – I guess in the end we're all just moneys jockeying for social status. Frankly, once I realized the above almost all of the rms mocking comes off as being extremely mean spirited.
- hype7 15y ago
  I don't know. Not to come off as mean spirited, but when someone puts themselves in the public spotlight, sends out requests to speak, then sends a list of demands in addition to... I'm all in favor of principled people. But if nothing else, the public ribbing should actually HELP his cause - he is turning people off by virtue of what he's saying and doing. If he actually listens, he might find himself a little bit more persuasive about his principles
  - phillmv 15y ago
    If anything that rider clearly and loudly signals "I am eccentric and have a faulty amount of social awareness, please be advised". So, it seems to do the job it's meant for :P.

by 3am 15y ago

mechanical_fish 15y ago

Kottke was trying to start a reasoned debate about parrot husbandry, was he? That's an awfully generous reading. Though I can believe that Kottke didn't mean to instigate a mob (it is so easy to do by accident), there's no sense in pretending the mob isn't there, now. I'm not about to fuel the fire by linking to multiple people, many with large audiences, who have been poking fun at RMS's personal habits while pretending – not very convincingly – that they're doing so out of principle, but such links aren't hard to find at the moment. And, yes, we can all tell the difference between disagreeing with (or even joking about) RMS's very strong and sometimes very offbeat technical, legal, and political ideas... and making fun of his socks. The first is fine – it is something he invites – but the second is just rude.

3am 15y ago
I didn't see an mean intent in it. Personally, I thought the parrot thing in the rider was noteworthy, amusing, and didn't reflect at all poorly on rms. To the contrary I found it personable and charming. I was still sore from his comments the day after Jobs passed, and this diffused the bad feelings a bit. I don't know who else is poking fun of him, or what they're saying. There is limited time in life and an inexhaustible supply of jerks on the internet.
nasmorn 15y ago
Really I only see rms as your typucal celebrity here whos in his case entirely earned fame has risen to his head because he lives in a bubble were people read his rider and say: ok i go look for someone with a parrot. If I did it everyone would assume it is a joke. tl;dr stallman is softwares axel rose no more no less
msbarnett 15y ago
> And, yes, we can all tell the difference between disagreeing with (or even joking about) RMS's very strong and sometimes very offbeat technical, legal, and political opinions and making fun of his socks. The first is fine – it is something he invites – but the second is just rude. Are we talking about the same Richard M Stallman who once wrote: > Could people please not use this list to announce information of no particular interest to the people on the list? Hundreds of thousands of babies are born every day. While the whole phenomenon is menacing, one of them by itself is not newsworthy. Nor is it a difficult achievement—even some fish can do it. (Now, if you were a seahorse, it would be more interesting, since it would be the male that gave birth.) > These birth announcements also spread the myth that having a baby is something to be proud of, which fuels natalist pressure, which leads to pollution, extinction of wildlife, poverty, and ultimately mass starvation. in response to someone mentioning the birth of their child? If we're going to have an intellectually honest conversation about bullying in the tech community and the separation of personal attacks from technical matters, let's not attempt to do so under the delusion that RMS only invites comments on technical and political matters and never engages in extremely insulting social attacks on others. RMS is and always has been a controversial extremist who has been more than willing to engage in personal attacks in service to the causes that interest him.
- RickHull 15y ago
  > RMS is and always has been ... more than willing to engage in personal attacks in service to the causes that interest him. Can you cite something? Your above quotations are not personal attacks. He is explaining (poorly) that the chosen venue was not correct for the content being communicated. He is speaking in terms of principles and not attacking the person's identity.
  - msbarnett 15y ago
    His first sentence is a (slightly testy) comment that the emacs mailing list wasn't the right forum for a birth announcement. This didn't require telling the guy that the birth of his child was menacing, insignificant because it was accomplished by a female instead of a male, and complicit in mass starvation and genocide. The "wrong forum" content was just an incidental cover for a long-form attack on that person because it happened to push Stallman's buttons, and Stallman was in a position of power on the list from which he could conveniently abuse the poster without fear of repercussion. It's bullying every bit as much as the attacks on Stallman.

phillmv 15y ago

The part that bothers me is that I once went and saw an rms talk and within five minutes one thing was overwhelmingly clear to me. The dude clearly suffers from some kind of high functioning autism. Aspergers, whatever, it's just clear he doesn't think about social interactions the same way most other people do. Which given the kind of audience of nerds and geeks that he is front of I would expect to be a little bit more understanding or patient but – I guess in the end we're all just moneys jockeying for social status. Frankly, once I realized the above almost all of the rms mocking comes off as being extremely mean spirited.

hype7 15y ago
I don't know. Not to come off as mean spirited, but when someone puts themselves in the public spotlight, sends out requests to speak, then sends a list of demands in addition to... I'm all in favor of principled people. But if nothing else, the public ribbing should actually HELP his cause - he is turning people off by virtue of what he's saying and doing. If he actually listens, he might find himself a little bit more persuasive about his principles
- phillmv 15y ago
  If anything that rider clearly and loudly signals "I am eccentric and have a faulty amount of social awareness, please be advised". So, it seems to do the job it's meant for :P.