4 ms·

Actually, I think the GP post is saying we don't all agree on 1. The way progress looks to economists like Cowen is very different from how it'd look if a singl

by omeze 4y ago

Actually, I think the GP post is saying we don't all agree on 1. The way progress looks to economists like Cowen is very different from how it'd look if a single person asked that question to themselves. Rather than agreeing on the framework of "progress means increasing GDP and productivity", you could say "progress means total families" or "progress means a growing number of independent, self-sufficient communities". Is it radical to think that to some, progress might mean _more countries_?

madacol 4y ago
> Is it radical to think that to some, progress might mean _more countries_? I find hard to believe that anyone would put that in front of more basic needs like food, safety, home. Sure, once basic needs are satisfied, our goals start to diverge, and rely more on our subjective views of the world. But is the world even close to that? Should we disregard basic needs as a solved problem that we don't even think about anymore?
- mantas 4y ago
  Basic needs are covered compared to a coupe ages ago. Spring-of-nations happened because at the time many people got their basic needs covered and started looking for higher needs to fulfill. But as with salary raises, people quickly take better conditions as the new normal.
  - madacol 4y ago
    In comparison yes, but in absolute terms that's mostly true if you were born in the first world, and yet you still have to put a considerable amount of time into doing stuffs you dislike, like working (in most cases) I agree with you that we have had progress, and it's been net good by far. But I was answering to someone who its answer to the question "What would look like progress to you?" was something that is multiple levels above of what we consider basic needs today. The whole point of progress studies is that, in the long term, the best way to improve whatever we consider today "basic needs" is to "grow the pie" as fast as we can
    - mantas 4y ago
      When do we draw the line what is basic needs? Today’s third world lives better than first world 150 years ago. And even developing world lives better than nobility 100 years ago. I don’t believe purely growing the pie will fix it. Human beings looove to look at relative quality of life. And feel much better if everybody is equally poorer rather than higher baseline, but even higher extremes. For example my country in Soviet era was piss poor. But people managed to get by and find happiness. Nowadays we live much much much better in absolute terms. Even baseline. Yet many people are lost in rat race drowning in instagram envy.
      - madacol 4y ago
        > Human beings looove to look at relative quality of life. And feel much better if everybody is equally poorer rather than higher baseline, but even higher extremes. Do you have some data to back that up? Or any study?. My hypothesis is that most of those people think the world is mostly a zero-sum game, and they think the best way to improve their lives is to redistribute wealth more uniformly. > For example my country in Soviet era was piss poor. But people managed to get by and find happiness. I'm sorry, but that's an euphemism for dying and suffering. And be mindful that you, or your family, have survivorship bias. There are studies that show correlations between happiness and GDP I am from Venezuela, sadly, my memory is fresher. My dad needlessly died before hand because the government decided that a local pandemic (pre covid, 2017) didn't exist, the pandemic was in conflict to their statistic goals, so they acted as if it didn't existed and let it roll without restrains. And there were more common dramas like family and friends malnourished, and criminals rampaging the city (BTW, one time they entered into my house armed and tied me up while they robbed, and multiple times robbed my family's small businesses with guns). There are 2 main reasons why criminality exploded in the last decade, the economy shrunk more than 50%, and criminals weren't punished, in fact, some were even armed as guerrillas in favor of the ruling party. The line between police and criminal was as blurry as ever, I've never seen a police acting like thugs so shamelessly without any care, they knew there was no punishment whatsoever
        mantas 4y ago

by omeze 4y ago

madacol 4y ago

> Is it radical to think that to some, progress might mean _more countries_? I find hard to believe that anyone would put that in front of more basic needs like food, safety, home. Sure, once basic needs are satisfied, our goals start to diverge, and rely more on our subjective views of the world. But is the world even close to that? Should we disregard basic needs as a solved problem that we don't even think about anymore?

mantas 4y ago
Basic needs are covered compared to a coupe ages ago. Spring-of-nations happened because at the time many people got their basic needs covered and started looking for higher needs to fulfill. But as with salary raises, people quickly take better conditions as the new normal.
- madacol 4y ago
  In comparison yes, but in absolute terms that's mostly true if you were born in the first world, and yet you still have to put a considerable amount of time into doing stuffs you dislike, like working (in most cases) I agree with you that we have had progress, and it's been net good by far. But I was answering to someone who its answer to the question "What would look like progress to you?" was something that is multiple levels above of what we consider basic needs today. The whole point of progress studies is that, in the long term, the best way to improve whatever we consider today "basic needs" is to "grow the pie" as fast as we can
  - mantas 4y ago
    When do we draw the line what is basic needs? Today’s third world lives better than first world 150 years ago. And even developing world lives better than nobility 100 years ago. I don’t believe purely growing the pie will fix it. Human beings looove to look at relative quality of life. And feel much better if everybody is equally poorer rather than higher baseline, but even higher extremes. For example my country in Soviet era was piss poor. But people managed to get by and find happiness. Nowadays we live much much much better in absolute terms. Even baseline. Yet many people are lost in rat race drowning in instagram envy.
    - madacol 4y ago
      > Human beings looove to look at relative quality of life. And feel much better if everybody is equally poorer rather than higher baseline, but even higher extremes. Do you have some data to back that up? Or any study?. My hypothesis is that most of those people think the world is mostly a zero-sum game, and they think the best way to improve their lives is to redistribute wealth more uniformly. > For example my country in Soviet era was piss poor. But people managed to get by and find happiness. I'm sorry, but that's an euphemism for dying and suffering. And be mindful that you, or your family, have survivorship bias. There are studies that show correlations between happiness and GDP I am from Venezuela, sadly, my memory is fresher. My dad needlessly died before hand because the government decided that a local pandemic (pre covid, 2017) didn't exist, the pandemic was in conflict to their statistic goals, so they acted as if it didn't existed and let it roll without restrains. And there were more common dramas like family and friends malnourished, and criminals rampaging the city (BTW, one time they entered into my house armed and tied me up while they robbed, and multiple times robbed my family's small businesses with guns). There are 2 main reasons why criminality exploded in the last decade, the economy shrunk more than 50%, and criminals weren't punished, in fact, some were even armed as guerrillas in favor of the ruling party. The line between police and criminal was as blurry as ever, I've never seen a police acting like thugs so shamelessly without any care, they knew there was no punishment whatsoever
      - mantas 4y ago