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> prisoners are openly discriminated against in labor and housing, meaning your jail term is a meaningless wager by the prison system. they know there is a more

> prisoners are openly discriminated against in labor and housing, meaning your jail term is a meaningless wager by the prison system. they know there is a more than 2:1 chance you'll come right back, and for nothing more than trying to earn a living in a society thats shunned you. You might be able to "pay your debt to society," in some abstract sense, but there are things you can do in this world that will render you unwelcome in my home, near my family, or on my payroll. Life is for keeps and the decisions you make cannot all be undone.

IX-103 4y ago
So I take it you're not a Christian then -- that's fine I respect your convictions even if I do not share them. After all, Jesus hung out with prostitutes and appointed his disciple Paul, a murder, as a leader in his church. If Jesus could accept a reformed murderer, who am I to judge.
- dionidium 4y ago
  That's right, I'm not. As Christopher Hitchens once said, "you're free to love your enemies, but don't ask me to."
FpUser 4y ago
This is why except for very specific cases criminal background checks must be abolished. This way people can restart their lives without people like yourself haunting them for the rest of their lives. And no, I've never been in "the system"
- dionidium 4y ago
  Obviously it's the convicted felons who have haunted society, not the other way around. One should be very clear on this point.
  - FpUser 4y ago
    Bullshit, perfectly fine people having their lives screwed as a result of minor crimes committed years ago. Basically they've been denied any meaningful jobs because of the record.
    - bruce511 4y ago
      I feel like you are both arguing the same point, but from a different perspective. Ultimately people go to prison for different reasons, and so generalising as "ex felon" can cloud the issue. If you see prisons as being full of child molesters, murderers and rapists, then that naturally leads to some conclusions. If you see prisons as overflowing with the results of the "war on drugs" then there are possibly different conclusions. Are these people criminals" or POWs? Ultimately every case is different and has its own merits. A teenager can be convicted of no more than possesing some weed. Or shooting up a school. Clearly there could be easier moral paths to reintegration for one than the other. Even "sex crimes" happen on a scale. 2 consenting 17 year olds, having sex in an inappropriate place, or sexting each other nudes, leads to the same "status" as afore-mentioned rapists. (obviously sentence is different but they'll forever be on a sex offence registry.) So talking in sweeping terms about inmate populations and reforms, can be counter productive. It may be more helpful to discuss narrower groups, and the nature of the crimes that got them there.
      - FpUser 4y ago
        Sweeping reforms are needed. The main one is to stop considering inmates as a source of income. Make rehabilitation a primary goal. The other one is to prohibit criminal background checks except very narrow cases. Sure there will be people who never reform. But the nature of their crimes will mostly keep them in prisons anyways. And yes there will be some price to pay.
        dionidium 4y ago
        Some price to pay is an understatement. Almost half of all released prisoners in the U.S. return to prison within the first year. You’re trying to experiment with people’s lives by taking away their totally normal and rational desire not to associate with such people and the effects are utterly predictable. And as I mentioned in a previous post, eliminating background checks backfires anyway, because people simply stereotype more when you take away their ability to look at specifics. If you care about reintegrating criminals, then be the change you want to see in the world, but don’t try to tell me there’s anything wrong with someone who chooses differently.
sdenton4 4y ago
Bryan Stevenson: "Each of us is more than the worst thing we’ve ever done.” There's a lot of people in prison for good because of something they did (or that happened near them; see LWOP) when they were adolescents. Plenty of people who are entirely different at forty or sixty years old from who they were at twenty, but who won't ever be out on parole because of the nature of their conviction. Would /you/ want to be judged for anything based on who you were as a twenty year old, or who you are today?
- dionidium 4y ago
  Until we live in a universe where the harm to the victims can be undone I think we have to accept that ours is one where your actions are forever. If I could flip a switch so that we lived in the other kind of universe, I would, but I can't convince myself that that's the character of the universe we actually inhabit. As for my own actions, I've never beat anyone's head in with a hammer or raped a defenseless woman in an alley or abused a child, and yet I think every day about the harms I have inflicted on others over the course of my life. I'm not sure I totally understand what people even mean by "starting over." It's not something I would expect for myself and if I ever do commit any of the aforementioned crimes (God help me) I hope I have the courage to put a bullet in my own throat before I'm ever tempted to ask for a "second chance."

IX-103 4y ago

So I take it you're not a Christian then -- that's fine I respect your convictions even if I do not share them. After all, Jesus hung out with prostitutes and appointed his disciple Paul, a murder, as a leader in his church. If Jesus could accept a reformed murderer, who am I to judge.

dionidium 4y ago
That's right, I'm not. As Christopher Hitchens once said, "you're free to love your enemies, but don't ask me to."

FpUser 4y ago

This is why except for very specific cases criminal background checks must be abolished. This way people can restart their lives without people like yourself haunting them for the rest of their lives. And no, I've never been in "the system"

dionidium 4y ago
Obviously it's the convicted felons who have haunted society, not the other way around. One should be very clear on this point.
- FpUser 4y ago
  Bullshit, perfectly fine people having their lives screwed as a result of minor crimes committed years ago. Basically they've been denied any meaningful jobs because of the record.
  - bruce511 4y ago
    I feel like you are both arguing the same point, but from a different perspective. Ultimately people go to prison for different reasons, and so generalising as "ex felon" can cloud the issue. If you see prisons as being full of child molesters, murderers and rapists, then that naturally leads to some conclusions. If you see prisons as overflowing with the results of the "war on drugs" then there are possibly different conclusions. Are these people criminals" or POWs? Ultimately every case is different and has its own merits. A teenager can be convicted of no more than possesing some weed. Or shooting up a school. Clearly there could be easier moral paths to reintegration for one than the other. Even "sex crimes" happen on a scale. 2 consenting 17 year olds, having sex in an inappropriate place, or sexting each other nudes, leads to the same "status" as afore-mentioned rapists. (obviously sentence is different but they'll forever be on a sex offence registry.) So talking in sweeping terms about inmate populations and reforms, can be counter productive. It may be more helpful to discuss narrower groups, and the nature of the crimes that got them there.
    - FpUser 4y ago
      Sweeping reforms are needed. The main one is to stop considering inmates as a source of income. Make rehabilitation a primary goal. The other one is to prohibit criminal background checks except very narrow cases. Sure there will be people who never reform. But the nature of their crimes will mostly keep them in prisons anyways. And yes there will be some price to pay.
      - dionidium 4y ago
        Some price to pay is an understatement. Almost half of all released prisoners in the U.S. return to prison within the first year. You’re trying to experiment with people’s lives by taking away their totally normal and rational desire not to associate with such people and the effects are utterly predictable. And as I mentioned in a previous post, eliminating background checks backfires anyway, because people simply stereotype more when you take away their ability to look at specifics. If you care about reintegrating criminals, then be the change you want to see in the world, but don’t try to tell me there’s anything wrong with someone who chooses differently.

sdenton4 4y ago

Bryan Stevenson: "Each of us is more than the worst thing we’ve ever done.” There's a lot of people in prison for good because of something they did (or that happened near them; see LWOP) when they were adolescents. Plenty of people who are entirely different at forty or sixty years old from who they were at twenty, but who won't ever be out on parole because of the nature of their conviction. Would /you/ want to be judged for anything based on who you were as a twenty year old, or who you are today?

dionidium 4y ago
Until we live in a universe where the harm to the victims can be undone I think we have to accept that ours is one where your actions are forever. If I could flip a switch so that we lived in the other kind of universe, I would, but I can't convince myself that that's the character of the universe we actually inhabit. As for my own actions, I've never beat anyone's head in with a hammer or raped a defenseless woman in an alley or abused a child, and yet I think every day about the harms I have inflicted on others over the course of my life. I'm not sure I totally understand what people even mean by "starting over." It's not something I would expect for myself and if I ever do commit any of the aforementioned crimes (God help me) I hope I have the courage to put a bullet in my own throat before I'm ever tempted to ask for a "second chance."