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Hopefully this time, we get some regulator action so we're never back here again. Each time the cycle gets bigger, the tendrils work their way into traditional

Hopefully this time, we get some regulator action so we're never back here again. Each time the cycle gets bigger, the tendrils work their way into traditional finance - and more people get hurt. This time, the Quebec public servants are getting rekt on their investment into Celsius [1]. Now it's hurting pensioners, not just a bunch of degenerate gamblers and moonbois. It's fine for a bunch of pokemon card traders to get rekt - but by the time you get to 3AC scale, it's time for regulators to put the kibosh on the whole space. They're securities. They either get registered or you go to Club Fed. With all due respect, fingers crossed, this time it does not work out. [1] https://www.cdpq.com/en/news/pressreleases/celsius-network-announces-investment-led-westcap-cdpq-valuation-more-us-3b https://www.cdpq.com/en/news/pressreleases/celsius-network-a...

ycta2022061715 4y ago
Question: what is the point of crypto if it becomes regulated like traditional financial assets? Crypto doesn't have any actual use-value like stocks or real estate, and its entire selling point was that it's decentralized and unregulated.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- junofan 4y ago
  Simplifies and modernizes cross-border flows. Try buying shares in a firm listed on the Indonesia Stock Exchange—you’ll spend days to weeks dealing with middlemen. Should be a couple clicks to submit to a public ledger. I don’t see where lack of regulation is a selling point—it greatly limits invested capital.
  - astrange 4y ago
    Isn't the reason buying international shares is slow that they don't want you to do it and therefore have regulated it? There's no technical merit in crypto that actually makes things fast, it's just a regulation dodge. It's necessarily slower and more expensive than TransferWise.
    - Jommi 4y ago
      A country that _Doesnt_ want to more capital flowing into their companies? Sounds pretty weird no?
      - hakfoo 4y ago
        The capital comes at the cost of sovereignity. They have decided it's better to avoid their local businesses being beholden to foreign investors, which is a case that can be argued. If you're being directed mostly by overseas investors who will never see your actual operation in person, that increases the pressure to cook the books, either on a direct accounting-level basis, or by cutting corners in operations, environmental or labour standards, or product quality. Notice how some countries insist on joint ventures with a 51% local partner, which similarly ensures there's some local skin in the game.
  - btilly 4y ago
    As far as I can see, https://wise.com/us/ https://wise.com/us/ is in all ways a better way to simplify cross-border flows than crypto. When working with overseas teams, it is literally how they ask to be paid.
    - djbusby 4y ago
      And revolute when Wise don't work. It's easy and has some of the protection of the "outdated" banking industry.
    - Jommi 4y ago
      this works for c2c transfers but not for businesses, business payments, trading, lending other derivative products etc.
      - arcticbull 4y ago
        Sure it does, they have business offerings. Trading, use IBKR. Lending, IBKR. Other derivative products, IBKR.
  - scrubs 4y ago
    No - crypto does nothing for cross-border flows. It could only make it worse. Purchasing shares in foreign countries say France often (not always) requires one to go through an approved French broker (middleman). Why? - so there's somebody in France that can *make money* being the middle man - so the French broker can be held to some standards reporting and what not. For example, the French broker at risk of criminal prosecution cannot sell shares to NK or Iran. - so the rules around transfer of shares for payment and settlement are set so people can't be screwing each over or not completing settlement in a timely fashion - because of scale: there are zillions of trades done every day. that's why netting-out is a real thing. settlement has to be fast, tight, nailed down. And regulation helps with that through known pre-approved brokers with set roles and responsibilities Also consider that unlike crypto you gotta settle. Settlement is serious. And settle in a bonafide currency that everybody agrees is a currency: EUR, for example. And you have fixed time to do it in. You can't be waving your hands with some stupid story about how your broker/holder of crypto, - stopped you from withdrawing your stuff - is down - is in chapter 7 or 11 - that you forgot your crypto keys - and the entity getting the cash for selling shares isn't gonna wait around for some miner to "approve" your transfer maybe in 10 mins ... or maybe tomorrow
    - datadata 4y ago
      I think the settlement story for bitcoin is actually superior than with USD/EUR. Yes you have to wait 10min x a few blocks, but that is final, irreversible settlement.
      - bovinejoni 4y ago
        Except for the possibility of unconfirmed transactions if the network is under load right? With both centrally registered clients and counterparts what’s the case for decentralisation here again?
        datadata 4y ago
        If the network is under load you can prioritize by paying a higher fee. If mining slows down it can take more time for a block, but difficultly will adjust to get back to 10mim cadence. I'm not sure what you mean by centrally registered clients. You can still use bitcoin peer to peer. Also the idea that banning peer to peer bitcoin would be what would make decentralization not worthwhile feels rather circular.
- thruway516 4y ago
  "Crypto doesn't have any actual use-value..." Same can be said for most financial instruments yet they're regulated. Gambling has no "real world use-value" yet it is heavily regulated.
codehalo 4y ago
Any advice for those getting rekt in the traditional markets, or are you hoping that doesn't work out too?
- lupire 4y ago
  Wait it out or become an active investor in value creation. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
  - codehalo 4y ago
    There was never any in crypto either. Anyone who thought so is just as stupid as the HN'ers that think cryptocurrencies are bogus. Thinking a few over leveraged crypto companies getting wiped out will destroy cryptocurrencies is laughable.
tyrfing 4y ago
> Now it's hurting pensioners, not just a bunch of degenerate gamblers and moonbois. No, that's your public institution making degenerate gambles on late-stage startups. The largest venture capital investor in Canada isn't some poor victim, they are the perpetrators, the owners. It's completely laughable to paint them as a victim of some crypto-ecosystem heist.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  The pensioners are the victims of both the fund and Celsius. Neither should the fund be allowed to invest in Ponzi schemes, nor should the so-called investments be permitted to run them in the open. [edit] I'd have the same criticism of both if they'd invested in Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC.
  - lupire 4y ago
    It should be illegal for fiduciaries to invest client funds in crypto schemes without client consent, not illegal for individuals to speculate.
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      I take the position that cryptos are clearly securities under the Howey test. It's pretty self-evident. As such, they must be registered in order to be traded by anyone other than an accredited investor. To be clear, this is the law of the land today. All that's missing is regulatory enforcement action.
- anonymousab 4y ago
  The victim is the pensioners, not necessarily the gambling fund. "regulator action" can refer to simply preventing sensitive/prison funds from going into certain classes of risky ventures, and not regulation against crypto itself.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

ycta2022061715 4y ago

Question: what is the point of crypto if it becomes regulated like traditional financial assets? Crypto doesn't have any actual use-value like stocks or real estate, and its entire selling point was that it's decentralized and unregulated.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
junofan 4y ago
Simplifies and modernizes cross-border flows. Try buying shares in a firm listed on the Indonesia Stock Exchange—you’ll spend days to weeks dealing with middlemen. Should be a couple clicks to submit to a public ledger. I don’t see where lack of regulation is a selling point—it greatly limits invested capital.
- astrange 4y ago
  Isn't the reason buying international shares is slow that they don't want you to do it and therefore have regulated it? There's no technical merit in crypto that actually makes things fast, it's just a regulation dodge. It's necessarily slower and more expensive than TransferWise.
  - Jommi 4y ago
    A country that _Doesnt_ want to more capital flowing into their companies? Sounds pretty weird no?
    - hakfoo 4y ago
      The capital comes at the cost of sovereignity. They have decided it's better to avoid their local businesses being beholden to foreign investors, which is a case that can be argued. If you're being directed mostly by overseas investors who will never see your actual operation in person, that increases the pressure to cook the books, either on a direct accounting-level basis, or by cutting corners in operations, environmental or labour standards, or product quality. Notice how some countries insist on joint ventures with a 51% local partner, which similarly ensures there's some local skin in the game.
- btilly 4y ago
  As far as I can see, https://wise.com/us/ https://wise.com/us/ is in all ways a better way to simplify cross-border flows than crypto. When working with overseas teams, it is literally how they ask to be paid.
  - djbusby 4y ago
    And revolute when Wise don't work. It's easy and has some of the protection of the "outdated" banking industry.
  - Jommi 4y ago
    this works for c2c transfers but not for businesses, business payments, trading, lending other derivative products etc.
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      Sure it does, they have business offerings. Trading, use IBKR. Lending, IBKR. Other derivative products, IBKR.
- scrubs 4y ago
  No - crypto does nothing for cross-border flows. It could only make it worse. Purchasing shares in foreign countries say France often (not always) requires one to go through an approved French broker (middleman). Why? - so there's somebody in France that can *make money* being the middle man - so the French broker can be held to some standards reporting and what not. For example, the French broker at risk of criminal prosecution cannot sell shares to NK or Iran. - so the rules around transfer of shares for payment and settlement are set so people can't be screwing each over or not completing settlement in a timely fashion - because of scale: there are zillions of trades done every day. that's why netting-out is a real thing. settlement has to be fast, tight, nailed down. And regulation helps with that through known pre-approved brokers with set roles and responsibilities Also consider that unlike crypto you gotta settle. Settlement is serious. And settle in a bonafide currency that everybody agrees is a currency: EUR, for example. And you have fixed time to do it in. You can't be waving your hands with some stupid story about how your broker/holder of crypto, - stopped you from withdrawing your stuff - is down - is in chapter 7 or 11 - that you forgot your crypto keys - and the entity getting the cash for selling shares isn't gonna wait around for some miner to "approve" your transfer maybe in 10 mins ... or maybe tomorrow
  - datadata 4y ago
    I think the settlement story for bitcoin is actually superior than with USD/EUR. Yes you have to wait 10min x a few blocks, but that is final, irreversible settlement.
    - bovinejoni 4y ago
      Except for the possibility of unconfirmed transactions if the network is under load right? With both centrally registered clients and counterparts what’s the case for decentralisation here again?
      - datadata 4y ago
        If the network is under load you can prioritize by paying a higher fee. If mining slows down it can take more time for a block, but difficultly will adjust to get back to 10mim cadence. I'm not sure what you mean by centrally registered clients. You can still use bitcoin peer to peer. Also the idea that banning peer to peer bitcoin would be what would make decentralization not worthwhile feels rather circular.
thruway516 4y ago
"Crypto doesn't have any actual use-value..." Same can be said for most financial instruments yet they're regulated. Gambling has no "real world use-value" yet it is heavily regulated.

codehalo 4y ago

Any advice for those getting rekt in the traditional markets, or are you hoping that doesn't work out too?

lupire 4y ago
Wait it out or become an active investor in value creation. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
- codehalo 4y ago
  There was never any in crypto either. Anyone who thought so is just as stupid as the HN'ers that think cryptocurrencies are bogus. Thinking a few over leveraged crypto companies getting wiped out will destroy cryptocurrencies is laughable.

tyrfing 4y ago

> Now it's hurting pensioners, not just a bunch of degenerate gamblers and moonbois. No, that's your public institution making degenerate gambles on late-stage startups. The largest venture capital investor in Canada isn't some poor victim, they are the perpetrators, the owners. It's completely laughable to paint them as a victim of some crypto-ecosystem heist.

arcticbull 4y ago
The pensioners are the victims of both the fund and Celsius. Neither should the fund be allowed to invest in Ponzi schemes, nor should the so-called investments be permitted to run them in the open. [edit] I'd have the same criticism of both if they'd invested in Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC.
- lupire 4y ago
  It should be illegal for fiduciaries to invest client funds in crypto schemes without client consent, not illegal for individuals to speculate.
  - arcticbull 4y ago
    I take the position that cryptos are clearly securities under the Howey test. It's pretty self-evident. As such, they must be registered in order to be traded by anyone other than an accredited investor. To be clear, this is the law of the land today. All that's missing is regulatory enforcement action.
anonymousab 4y ago
The victim is the pensioners, not necessarily the gambling fund. "regulator action" can refer to simply preventing sensitive/prison funds from going into certain classes of risky ventures, and not regulation against crypto itself.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]