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They're paying the penalty of crime. At least they're being given something productive to do, and easing the burden on taxpayers. Just read about an Illinois f

They're paying the penalty of crime. At least they're being given something productive to do, and easing the burden on taxpayers. Just read about an Illinois father who drowned his three young children to keep his wife from taking them. You think it's slave labor for this man to work below minimum wage while being given a roof, bed, bathroom, and food, at the expense of our taxes?

ssalka 4y ago
If you're forced to work against your will, yeah, that's slave labor. Blame, culpability, guilt, etc is besides the point. Prison labor in practice is the enslavement of criminals. edit: people deemed criminals by the state (includes false positives)
- cactus2093 4y ago
  But everything in prison is being done to you against your will. That's kind of the whole point. I don't see why being required to do a moderate amount of work under humane working conditions is so much worse than being required to sit there in a cell at other hours with no ability to leave. (If the working conditions are not humane, then that's a different story). They also do usually receive pay, just less than minimum wage. So put a different way - I don't see why the minimum wage within a prison should necessarily be the same as the minimum wage outside of prison.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    If the prisoner is attractive to a guard, they might as well be forced to have sex against their will. That's kind of the whole point....? Sorry, what's the whole point? Incarceration does not imply exploitation. Exploitation is an abuse of power over incarcerated people. If you want to reduce recidivism, better to pay for their work so they see value in an honest day's work. What we've got now only teaches prisoners that we've got them over a barrel.
    - cactus2093 4y ago
      Forced sex, or torture, or other horrible things are inhumane and unacceptable. Being required to sit in a cell without leaving after you have been convicted of a crime is something that society has decided is acceptable. It seems like being required to help out with serving lunch or mopping the floors is more like the latter than the former.
      - klyrs 4y ago
        Forced labor is also inhumane and unacceptable. "I ate your lunch because it was just sitting there in the fridge" is an even lesser moral injury, but that doesn't make it right.
pessimizer 4y ago
That's nothing. I just read about an angel who never did anything wrong and volunteered every Sunday reading for blind children, but was put in prison because he didn't have an alibi for a crime that was later shown to have been committed by someone else. Do you really think that he should have been enslaved in order to pay for the cage that imprisoned him? edit: and about that guy who you mention. Do you really think that there's anything wrong with carving the names of his victims in his back, rubbing the wounds with salt and having him sexually abused by dogs? Wouldn't feel bad about that, right? Why draw a line anywhere if you're not going to draw a line at slavery?
WesternWind 4y ago
I think the definition of slavery doesn't change when people do awful things. I don't think it's great for the economy either. I think people need to think more about their theory of justice, and about psychology and sociology, and I hope nobody is deciding their ideas about what a justice system should be based on an anecdote like that. The idea of justice as retributive punishment, a penalty you pay, is older than the bible. Have folks heard of Beccaria, Howard Zehr, and John Rawls? Here's a short blog post about Beccaria, whom Voltaire said everyone should read. https://www.exurbe.com/on-crimes-and-punishments-and-beccaria/ https://www.exurbe.com/on-crimes-and-punishments-and-beccari... And Beccaria was writing centuries ago, Howard Zehr and John Rawls are both influential 20th century thinkers who had important ideas on what a more just society should look like.

ssalka 4y ago

If you're forced to work against your will, yeah, that's slave labor. Blame, culpability, guilt, etc is besides the point. Prison labor in practice is the enslavement of criminals. edit: people deemed criminals by the state (includes false positives)

cactus2093 4y ago
But everything in prison is being done to you against your will. That's kind of the whole point. I don't see why being required to do a moderate amount of work under humane working conditions is so much worse than being required to sit there in a cell at other hours with no ability to leave. (If the working conditions are not humane, then that's a different story). They also do usually receive pay, just less than minimum wage. So put a different way - I don't see why the minimum wage within a prison should necessarily be the same as the minimum wage outside of prison.
- klyrs 4y ago
  If the prisoner is attractive to a guard, they might as well be forced to have sex against their will. That's kind of the whole point....? Sorry, what's the whole point? Incarceration does not imply exploitation. Exploitation is an abuse of power over incarcerated people. If you want to reduce recidivism, better to pay for their work so they see value in an honest day's work. What we've got now only teaches prisoners that we've got them over a barrel.
  - cactus2093 4y ago
    Forced sex, or torture, or other horrible things are inhumane and unacceptable. Being required to sit in a cell without leaving after you have been convicted of a crime is something that society has decided is acceptable. It seems like being required to help out with serving lunch or mopping the floors is more like the latter than the former.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      Forced labor is also inhumane and unacceptable. "I ate your lunch because it was just sitting there in the fridge" is an even lesser moral injury, but that doesn't make it right.

pessimizer 4y ago

That's nothing. I just read about an angel who never did anything wrong and volunteered every Sunday reading for blind children, but was put in prison because he didn't have an alibi for a crime that was later shown to have been committed by someone else. Do you really think that he should have been enslaved in order to pay for the cage that imprisoned him? edit: and about that guy who you mention. Do you really think that there's anything wrong with carving the names of his victims in his back, rubbing the wounds with salt and having him sexually abused by dogs? Wouldn't feel bad about that, right? Why draw a line anywhere if you're not going to draw a line at slavery?

WesternWind 4y ago

I think the definition of slavery doesn't change when people do awful things. I don't think it's great for the economy either. I think people need to think more about their theory of justice, and about psychology and sociology, and I hope nobody is deciding their ideas about what a justice system should be based on an anecdote like that. The idea of justice as retributive punishment, a penalty you pay, is older than the bible. Have folks heard of Beccaria, Howard Zehr, and John Rawls? Here's a short blog post about Beccaria, whom Voltaire said everyone should read. https://www.exurbe.com/on-crimes-and-punishments-and-beccaria/ https://www.exurbe.com/on-crimes-and-punishments-and-beccari... And Beccaria was writing centuries ago, Howard Zehr and John Rawls are both influential 20th century thinkers who had important ideas on what a more just society should look like.