5 ms·

Can you point out which poster said this?

googlryas 4y ago
That's what I'm reading when I hear that forced labor by prisoners is slavery. If that is slavery, then what is locking them in a box and not letting them leave? Would that be kidnapping? Abduction? Why is locking someone in a box an acceptable punishment, but making them do work while locked in the box unacceptable?
- anonymoushn 4y ago
  It does not seem fair, when someone tells you one thing, to imagine that they believe some other thing they have not mentioned and then ask them why they believe those two things together.
  - googlryas 4y ago
    I'm not telling someone they believe those things. I'm saying that I don't see how you can believe one without believing the other, since they both require the same leap of logic. And I don't think people believe that locking prisoners up is actually kidnapping and abduction - I am actually more of the mind that people don't really think it is slavery, but are just saying that as a rhetorical point. Just like many conservatives don't really think abortion is murder, which is why they don't want to punish aborters the same way they want murderers to be punished.
    - anonymoushn 4y ago
      It seems much more likely that the people who insist on calling forced labor compelled using the threat of torture "slavery" (which, to be clear, is not really an opinion about whether or not we ought to do it) are opposed to the vast majority of the imprisonments in the USA than that they are fine with them.
      - googlryas 4y ago
        It would really be more about the concept of putting someone in a box, rather than the implementation of it, which surely is flawed. I hear: "Slavery is never acceptable" But then I also hear: "Sometimes locking someone in a box forever is acceptable" I can't square those two viewpoints.
        anonymoushn 4y ago
        It looks like you are once again the only user in the whole comment section posting the things you claim to be hearing. I will agree narrowly though: US prisons should not use torture to compel labor by prisoners.
        googlryas 4y ago
        Right. No one is saying that putting people in a box is kidnapping/abduction because it is baldly ridiculous . However, it is the same exact logic as calling prison labor slavery. If someone can tell me how prison labor is slavery, but putting them in a box is not kidnapping/abducting, I would be most edified.
        failrate 4y ago
        I am claiming that putting someone in a box is abduction. Whether or not the safety of society requires e.g. a violent criminal to be sequestered from that society is immaterial. Taking someone from the world and sticking them in a box is abduction.
        uoaei 4y ago
        Please get this Twitter-style debate tactics out of this space. Putting words in other peoples' mouths is a hideous trait.
        googlryas 4y ago
        Saying "no one is saying this" is putting words in other people's mouths?
    - samatman 4y ago
      At least in the US we have this statement in the Constitution: > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. There is no such supporting language for calling imprisonment "kidnapping", whereas compelling labor from prisoners is explicitly identified here as your choice of "slavery" or "involuntary servitude".
    - failrate 4y ago
      I believe that even before emancipation was finally achieved, slave holders were already looking for the next slavery analogue: share cropping, jobs which were paid in tips, and prison labor.
- zimpenfish 4y ago
  > making them do work while locked in the box unacceptable It's more the "incarcerated workers in the U.S. earn an average of just between 13 cents and 52 cents per hour" that's unacceptable, I think, rather than just the concept of prisoners working.
- failrate 4y ago
  Yeah, humans shouldn't lock other humans in cages. It is a tragic failure mode.

That's what I'm reading when I hear that forced labor by prisoners is slavery. If that is slavery, then what is locking them in a box and not letting them leave? Would that be kidnapping? Abduction? Why is locking someone in a box an acceptable punishment, but making them do work while locked in the box unacceptable?

anonymoushn 4y ago
It does not seem fair, when someone tells you one thing, to imagine that they believe some other thing they have not mentioned and then ask them why they believe those two things together.
- googlryas 4y ago
  I'm not telling someone they believe those things. I'm saying that I don't see how you can believe one without believing the other, since they both require the same leap of logic. And I don't think people believe that locking prisoners up is actually kidnapping and abduction - I am actually more of the mind that people don't really think it is slavery, but are just saying that as a rhetorical point. Just like many conservatives don't really think abortion is murder, which is why they don't want to punish aborters the same way they want murderers to be punished.
  - anonymoushn 4y ago
    It seems much more likely that the people who insist on calling forced labor compelled using the threat of torture "slavery" (which, to be clear, is not really an opinion about whether or not we ought to do it) are opposed to the vast majority of the imprisonments in the USA than that they are fine with them.
    - googlryas 4y ago
      It would really be more about the concept of putting someone in a box, rather than the implementation of it, which surely is flawed. I hear: "Slavery is never acceptable" But then I also hear: "Sometimes locking someone in a box forever is acceptable" I can't square those two viewpoints.
      - anonymoushn 4y ago
        It looks like you are once again the only user in the whole comment section posting the things you claim to be hearing. I will agree narrowly though: US prisons should not use torture to compel labor by prisoners.
        googlryas 4y ago
        Right. No one is saying that putting people in a box is kidnapping/abduction because it is baldly ridiculous . However, it is the same exact logic as calling prison labor slavery. If someone can tell me how prison labor is slavery, but putting them in a box is not kidnapping/abducting, I would be most edified.
        failrate 4y ago
        I am claiming that putting someone in a box is abduction. Whether or not the safety of society requires e.g. a violent criminal to be sequestered from that society is immaterial. Taking someone from the world and sticking them in a box is abduction.
        uoaei 4y ago
        Please get this Twitter-style debate tactics out of this space. Putting words in other peoples' mouths is a hideous trait.
        googlryas 4y ago
        Saying "no one is saying this" is putting words in other people's mouths?
  - samatman 4y ago
    At least in the US we have this statement in the Constitution: > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. There is no such supporting language for calling imprisonment "kidnapping", whereas compelling labor from prisoners is explicitly identified here as your choice of "slavery" or "involuntary servitude".
  - failrate 4y ago
    I believe that even before emancipation was finally achieved, slave holders were already looking for the next slavery analogue: share cropping, jobs which were paid in tips, and prison labor.
zimpenfish 4y ago
> making them do work while locked in the box unacceptable It's more the "incarcerated workers in the U.S. earn an average of just between 13 cents and 52 cents per hour" that's unacceptable, I think, rather than just the concept of prisoners working.
failrate 4y ago
Yeah, humans shouldn't lock other humans in cages. It is a tragic failure mode.