5 ms·

Locking people in a cage for years and controlling every detail of their life: okay telling them to dig a hole: slavery

by googlryas 4y ago

anonymoushn 4y ago
Can you point out which poster said this?
- googlryas 4y ago
  That's what I'm reading when I hear that forced labor by prisoners is slavery. If that is slavery, then what is locking them in a box and not letting them leave? Would that be kidnapping? Abduction? Why is locking someone in a box an acceptable punishment, but making them do work while locked in the box unacceptable?
  - anonymoushn 4y ago
    It does not seem fair, when someone tells you one thing, to imagine that they believe some other thing they have not mentioned and then ask them why they believe those two things together.
    - googlryas 4y ago
      I'm not telling someone they believe those things. I'm saying that I don't see how you can believe one without believing the other, since they both require the same leap of logic. And I don't think people believe that locking prisoners up is actually kidnapping and abduction - I am actually more of the mind that people don't really think it is slavery, but are just saying that as a rhetorical point. Just like many conservatives don't really think abortion is murder, which is why they don't want to punish aborters the same way they want murderers to be punished.
      - anonymoushn 4y ago
        It seems much more likely that the people who insist on calling forced labor compelled using the threat of torture "slavery" (which, to be clear, is not really an opinion about whether or not we ought to do it) are opposed to the vast majority of the imprisonments in the USA than that they are fine with them.
        googlryas 4y ago
        It would really be more about the concept of putting someone in a box, rather than the implementation of it, which surely is flawed. I hear: "Slavery is never acceptable" But then I also hear: "Sometimes locking someone in a box forever is acceptable" I can't square those two viewpoints.
        anonymoushn 4y ago
        It looks like you are once again the only user in the whole comment section posting the things you claim to be hearing. I will agree narrowly though: US prisons should not use torture to compel labor by prisoners.
        googlryas 4y ago
        Right. No one is saying that putting people in a box is kidnapping/abduction because it is baldly ridiculous . However, it is the same exact logic as calling prison labor slavery. If someone can tell me how prison labor is slavery, but putting them in a box is not kidnapping/abducting, I would be most edified.
        failrate 4y ago
        I am claiming that putting someone in a box is abduction. Whether or not the safety of society requires e.g. a violent criminal to be sequestered from that society is immaterial. Taking someone from the world and sticking them in a box is abduction.
        4y ago
  - zimpenfish 4y ago
    > making them do work while locked in the box unacceptable It's more the "incarcerated workers in the U.S. earn an average of just between 13 cents and 52 cents per hour" that's unacceptable, I think, rather than just the concept of prisoners working.
  - failrate 4y ago
    Yeah, humans shouldn't lock other humans in cages. It is a tragic failure mode.
mdavis6890 4y ago
The problem is the conflict of interest that it creates.
matthewdgreen 4y ago
> Locking people in a cage for years and controlling every detail of their life: okay Not "okay". Far from okay. Potentially justified on the theory that imprisoning people may be necessary to protect society and deter offenders. (Although many other countries obtain better results with lower/fewer prison sentences and better conditions.) Forcing people to dig holes, on the other hand? Not necessary. And yes, it is slavery.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dariusj18 4y ago
The prison part is the slavery, the digging the whole is the labor. As you have pointed out, there's an odd pearl clutching among a lot of people on the matter. I think those who argue of the negative incentives it creates are right, but too many appeals to emotion over the term slavery. The reason the 13th amendment included the crime provision is so that we can continue to imprison people, any work they do or don't do is secondary to the loss of rights.

Locking people in a cage for years and controlling every detail of their life: okay telling them to dig a hole: slavery

anonymoushn 4y ago

Can you point out which poster said this?

googlryas 4y ago
That's what I'm reading when I hear that forced labor by prisoners is slavery. If that is slavery, then what is locking them in a box and not letting them leave? Would that be kidnapping? Abduction? Why is locking someone in a box an acceptable punishment, but making them do work while locked in the box unacceptable?
- anonymoushn 4y ago
  It does not seem fair, when someone tells you one thing, to imagine that they believe some other thing they have not mentioned and then ask them why they believe those two things together.
  - googlryas 4y ago
    I'm not telling someone they believe those things. I'm saying that I don't see how you can believe one without believing the other, since they both require the same leap of logic. And I don't think people believe that locking prisoners up is actually kidnapping and abduction - I am actually more of the mind that people don't really think it is slavery, but are just saying that as a rhetorical point. Just like many conservatives don't really think abortion is murder, which is why they don't want to punish aborters the same way they want murderers to be punished.
    - anonymoushn 4y ago
      It seems much more likely that the people who insist on calling forced labor compelled using the threat of torture "slavery" (which, to be clear, is not really an opinion about whether or not we ought to do it) are opposed to the vast majority of the imprisonments in the USA than that they are fine with them.
      - googlryas 4y ago
        It would really be more about the concept of putting someone in a box, rather than the implementation of it, which surely is flawed. I hear: "Slavery is never acceptable" But then I also hear: "Sometimes locking someone in a box forever is acceptable" I can't square those two viewpoints.
        anonymoushn 4y ago
        It looks like you are once again the only user in the whole comment section posting the things you claim to be hearing. I will agree narrowly though: US prisons should not use torture to compel labor by prisoners.
        googlryas 4y ago
        Right. No one is saying that putting people in a box is kidnapping/abduction because it is baldly ridiculous . However, it is the same exact logic as calling prison labor slavery. If someone can tell me how prison labor is slavery, but putting them in a box is not kidnapping/abducting, I would be most edified.
        failrate 4y ago
        I am claiming that putting someone in a box is abduction. Whether or not the safety of society requires e.g. a violent criminal to be sequestered from that society is immaterial. Taking someone from the world and sticking them in a box is abduction.
        4y ago
- zimpenfish 4y ago
  > making them do work while locked in the box unacceptable It's more the "incarcerated workers in the U.S. earn an average of just between 13 cents and 52 cents per hour" that's unacceptable, I think, rather than just the concept of prisoners working.
- failrate 4y ago
  Yeah, humans shouldn't lock other humans in cages. It is a tragic failure mode.

mdavis6890 4y ago

The problem is the conflict of interest that it creates.

matthewdgreen 4y ago

> Locking people in a cage for years and controlling every detail of their life: okay Not "okay". Far from okay. Potentially justified on the theory that imprisoning people may be necessary to protect society and deter offenders. (Although many other countries obtain better results with lower/fewer prison sentences and better conditions.) Forcing people to dig holes, on the other hand? Not necessary. And yes, it is slavery.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dariusj18 4y ago

The prison part is the slavery, the digging the whole is the labor. As you have pointed out, there's an odd pearl clutching among a lot of people on the matter. I think those who argue of the negative incentives it creates are right, but too many appeals to emotion over the term slavery. The reason the 13th amendment included the crime provision is so that we can continue to imprison people, any work they do or don't do is secondary to the loss of rights.