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It may also incentivize people to avoid going to prison. What is the incentive to avoid prison? How does society recoup losses from crime? Does the 13th amendm

It may also incentivize people to avoid going to prison. What is the incentive to avoid prison? How does society recoup losses from crime? Does the 13th amendment exist to disincentivize crime? I don't know the history behind the specific language with the exclusion for criminals.

BrianOnHN 4y ago
> How does society recoup losses from crime? Profiteering does not equal Societal benefit. Investing in turning these people into autonomous law abiding members of society would be much more beneficial than profits in the prison industry.
- blobbers 4y ago
  The 11B of goods are subject to taxes. I agree that reducing recidivism is important, likely the product of a broken US juvenile system and weakened education system.
whiskyant 4y ago
Wasting years of your life locked up is already disincentive enough. Exploitive forced/hard/hazardous labor isn’t necessary. Same with being unable to afford common necessities, or being raped in prison. These just make the experience for prisoners inhumane and miserable.
- blobbers 4y ago
  It's an interesting discussion. I've chosen to exist within the confines of societies laws. Prison is itself a different world, and I don't claim to know very much about it or the mindset behind the different types of criminals that exist inside the prison system. In layman's terms, I hear about violent offenders, and non-violent. The US system also offers capital punishment which is another extreme and final judgement. Possibly, more 'natural' than the bureaucratic system. The country I live in does not use such a punishment system. Has anyone conducted studies to see if these prison incentives are at work? I would suspect comparing national systems is a pretty common practice in public policy academia. I've definitely seen fairly sensational articles on privatization of US prisons leading to corruption in the justice system. I'm not sure if hackernews can have these types of discussions without massive downvoting from one side or the other.
matthewdgreen 4y ago
The incentive to avoid prison is to avoid prison. Prison is terrible, even a "nice prison" where you don't have to work. The incentive for our society is to avoid a situation where the prison complex is financially incentivized to keep people in prison: setting aside the huge moral problem with this, it drags useful workers out of society and does not recoup the costs of prison.
enragedcacti 4y ago
> It may also incentivize people to avoid going to prison. What is the incentive to avoid prison? Pretty unlikely, see DOJ research[1]. severity of punishment, including the death penalty, does little to deter crime. It seems unlikely that the threat of forced labor would somehow deter something that the threat of years behind bars or death would not. > How does society recoup losses from crime? In civilized societies, we recoup losses from crime by leveraging incarceration of a criminal to apply methods proven to reduce recidivism. trying to recoup losses of a past crime at the expense of preventing a life of future crime isn't a winning strategy imo. > Does the 13th amendment exist to disincentivize crime? I don't know the history behind the specific language with the exclusion for criminals. It exists to free the enslaved population. the exception of criminals exists to throw the south a bone during reconstruction. [1] https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf
suture 4y ago
Consider the possibility that harsher conditions/sentences do not deter crime. https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/business-law/do-harsher-punishments-deter-crime https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/business-law/do-harsher-pu...
kelseyfrog 4y ago
Looking at oneself is a good place to start. Does this incentivize you from avoiding prison?

BrianOnHN 4y ago

> How does society recoup losses from crime? Profiteering does not equal Societal benefit. Investing in turning these people into autonomous law abiding members of society would be much more beneficial than profits in the prison industry.

blobbers 4y ago
The 11B of goods are subject to taxes. I agree that reducing recidivism is important, likely the product of a broken US juvenile system and weakened education system.

whiskyant 4y ago

Wasting years of your life locked up is already disincentive enough. Exploitive forced/hard/hazardous labor isn’t necessary. Same with being unable to afford common necessities, or being raped in prison. These just make the experience for prisoners inhumane and miserable.

blobbers 4y ago
It's an interesting discussion. I've chosen to exist within the confines of societies laws. Prison is itself a different world, and I don't claim to know very much about it or the mindset behind the different types of criminals that exist inside the prison system. In layman's terms, I hear about violent offenders, and non-violent. The US system also offers capital punishment which is another extreme and final judgement. Possibly, more 'natural' than the bureaucratic system. The country I live in does not use such a punishment system. Has anyone conducted studies to see if these prison incentives are at work? I would suspect comparing national systems is a pretty common practice in public policy academia. I've definitely seen fairly sensational articles on privatization of US prisons leading to corruption in the justice system. I'm not sure if hackernews can have these types of discussions without massive downvoting from one side or the other.

matthewdgreen 4y ago

The incentive to avoid prison is to avoid prison. Prison is terrible, even a "nice prison" where you don't have to work. The incentive for our society is to avoid a situation where the prison complex is financially incentivized to keep people in prison: setting aside the huge moral problem with this, it drags useful workers out of society and does not recoup the costs of prison.

enragedcacti 4y ago

> It may also incentivize people to avoid going to prison. What is the incentive to avoid prison? Pretty unlikely, see DOJ research[1]. severity of punishment, including the death penalty, does little to deter crime. It seems unlikely that the threat of forced labor would somehow deter something that the threat of years behind bars or death would not. > How does society recoup losses from crime? In civilized societies, we recoup losses from crime by leveraging incarceration of a criminal to apply methods proven to reduce recidivism. trying to recoup losses of a past crime at the expense of preventing a life of future crime isn't a winning strategy imo. > Does the 13th amendment exist to disincentivize crime? I don't know the history behind the specific language with the exclusion for criminals. It exists to free the enslaved population. the exception of criminals exists to throw the south a bone during reconstruction. [1] https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf

suture 4y ago

Consider the possibility that harsher conditions/sentences do not deter crime. https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/business-law/do-harsher-punishments-deter-crime https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/business-law/do-harsher-pu...

kelseyfrog 4y ago

Looking at oneself is a good place to start. Does this incentivize you from avoiding prison?