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Yes and it has always been like this. Why would companies truly "value" Engineering? The majority of execs thinks we are just interchangeable drones and the on

Yes and it has always been like this. Why would companies truly "value" Engineering? The majority of execs thinks we are just interchangeable drones and the only reason the salaries are so high in SV is because they literally can't get away with less. If they could, US salaries would be comparable to Canada or EU which are embarrassingly low for the amount of work they require. They will fire you in an instant to save cost, never increase your salary and come up with elaborate schemes to basically screw you. I have seen executives try it all: Replace senior engineering with students or interns (I'm not kidding), hire from third world companies and pay the peanuts, bring in cheap labor on visa restrictions and abuse them, low ball you in salary negotiations, attempt to pay with "stocks" (I'm talking about penny stock companies here..) To management, Engineering is nothing but an annoying expense that gets in their way of profit. All the free foods, foosball tables, "family" mantra and cool hats are designed to distract you from the fact that you are being paid in pittance. This is why there is so much discrimination against older engineers, because they are more likely to catch up to this and demand a fair wage and good working conditions. When you are young, naive and hungry, you don't think about it much because burning the midnight oil with pizza is exciting.

ljm 4y ago
> If they could, US salaries would be comparable to Canada or EU which are embarrassingly low for the amount of work they require. I think that misses a cultural difference, which is that Canada and EU jobs don't require as much work because our work ethic is different. I can earn 100k in London and be very comfortable doing less than 40 hours a week, never working weekends, never doing crunch time, never being forced to work overtime, taking 6 weeks of vacation every year, sometimes more, and half of that is legally mandated. I don't have to flat-share on 100k. US salaries are extreme because the US work-ethic doesn't support that lifestyle. If you value your time more than your money then it's the US that provides an embarrassingly low return.
- doubled112 4y ago
  https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptions-or-special-rules/government-employees-and-professionals#section-3 https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptio... IT professionals in Ontario, at least, are probably exempt from most of your list of things you'd think are required. Engineers and engineering students get an even shorter stick, in the form of more labour law exemptions. https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptions-or-special-rules/government-employees-and-professionals#section-2 https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptio...
- SonOfKyuss 4y ago
  -20% more work for 200% more pay seems like a pretty good ROI to me. Especially when I can check out and go back to a low stress gig after a few years.
- grandmczeb 4y ago
  > less than 40 hours a week, never working weekends, never doing crunch time, never being forced to work overtime, taking 6 weeks of vacation every year, sometimes more This sounds like 90% of the people I knew at Google. > US salaries are extreme because the US work-ethic doesn't support that lifestyle. This isn’t even remotely true.
- kareemsabri 4y ago
  Having immigrated from Canada to the US, and worked as a software engineer in both countries, I don't believe this is accurate. > I can earn 100k in London and be very comfortable doing less than 40 hours a week, never working weekends, never doing crunch time, never being forced to work overtime, taking 6 weeks of vacation every year, sometimes more This describes LOTS of engineers at big tech, just change 100k to 400k and 40 hours to 20
  - akhmatova 4y ago
    2008: everyone brags about working 90 hours a week 2022: everyone brags about working 20 hours a week
- Blackstone4 4y ago
  Not true really...having worked in both countries...Americans do not work harder than the Brits yet many Americans earn way more for same qualifications and abilities...reflective of the market position many US companies have and the grip they have on the largest end-market in the world.
- somerandomqaguy 4y ago
  Canadian here. I have my doubts on that; I had some devs that's consistently pulled 280 hours a month and once hit I think 320 hours. His salary was $59,000 CAD a year, and I believe the junior devs working with him were earning $11/hr circa 2010 ish and were working fairly close to those hours. The longest work day I've had is 40 or 50 hours without sleep to meet a deadline that and then had to be in bright and early the next morning. But there's been more then a few times a year that I ended up sleeping in the office because I missed the last 1:00am train out. Not all Canadian companies are like that anymore then all American companies are like Amazon or Google. Nor do I claim to understand why this is the case, but at least from what I've seen, Canadian tech salaries do lag quite a lot compared to US salaries compared to the skill demanded.
  - soulofmischief 4y ago
    40 hours in a day? Teach me your secrets.
    - blahfuk 4y ago
      That’s in Canadian hours
      - GLGirty 4y ago
        Metric to imperial hours.
- robswc 4y ago
  >be very comfortable doing less than 40 hours a week, never working weekends, never doing crunch time, never being forced to work overtime, taking 6 weeks of vacation every year, sometimes more, and half of that is legally mandated This is pretty normal in the US too. Sure, its not "mandated" but everything besides 6 weeks of vacation is pretty common for SDE.
pbj1968 4y ago
Much cheaper to hire a US citizen versus bringing someone in on a visa. Have you actually ever gone through the process of hiring a foreign national?
tekknik 4y ago
> They will fire you in an instant to save cost, never increase your salary and come up with elaborate schemes to basically screw you. https://www.engadget.com/amazon-more-than-doubles-base-pay-for-corporate-and-tech-employees-104600027.html https://www.engadget.com/amazon-more-than-doubles-base-pay-f...

ljm 4y ago

> If they could, US salaries would be comparable to Canada or EU which are embarrassingly low for the amount of work they require. I think that misses a cultural difference, which is that Canada and EU jobs don't require as much work because our work ethic is different. I can earn 100k in London and be very comfortable doing less than 40 hours a week, never working weekends, never doing crunch time, never being forced to work overtime, taking 6 weeks of vacation every year, sometimes more, and half of that is legally mandated. I don't have to flat-share on 100k. US salaries are extreme because the US work-ethic doesn't support that lifestyle. If you value your time more than your money then it's the US that provides an embarrassingly low return.

doubled112 4y ago
https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptions-or-special-rules/government-employees-and-professionals#section-3 https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptio... IT professionals in Ontario, at least, are probably exempt from most of your list of things you'd think are required. Engineers and engineering students get an even shorter stick, in the form of more labour law exemptions. https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptions-or-special-rules/government-employees-and-professionals#section-2 https://www.ontario.ca/document/industries-and-jobs-exemptio...
SonOfKyuss 4y ago
-20% more work for 200% more pay seems like a pretty good ROI to me. Especially when I can check out and go back to a low stress gig after a few years.
grandmczeb 4y ago
> less than 40 hours a week, never working weekends, never doing crunch time, never being forced to work overtime, taking 6 weeks of vacation every year, sometimes more This sounds like 90% of the people I knew at Google. > US salaries are extreme because the US work-ethic doesn't support that lifestyle. This isn’t even remotely true.
kareemsabri 4y ago
Having immigrated from Canada to the US, and worked as a software engineer in both countries, I don't believe this is accurate. > I can earn 100k in London and be very comfortable doing less than 40 hours a week, never working weekends, never doing crunch time, never being forced to work overtime, taking 6 weeks of vacation every year, sometimes more This describes LOTS of engineers at big tech, just change 100k to 400k and 40 hours to 20
- akhmatova 4y ago
  2008: everyone brags about working 90 hours a week 2022: everyone brags about working 20 hours a week
Blackstone4 4y ago
Not true really...having worked in both countries...Americans do not work harder than the Brits yet many Americans earn way more for same qualifications and abilities...reflective of the market position many US companies have and the grip they have on the largest end-market in the world.
somerandomqaguy 4y ago
Canadian here. I have my doubts on that; I had some devs that's consistently pulled 280 hours a month and once hit I think 320 hours. His salary was $59,000 CAD a year, and I believe the junior devs working with him were earning $11/hr circa 2010 ish and were working fairly close to those hours. The longest work day I've had is 40 or 50 hours without sleep to meet a deadline that and then had to be in bright and early the next morning. But there's been more then a few times a year that I ended up sleeping in the office because I missed the last 1:00am train out. Not all Canadian companies are like that anymore then all American companies are like Amazon or Google. Nor do I claim to understand why this is the case, but at least from what I've seen, Canadian tech salaries do lag quite a lot compared to US salaries compared to the skill demanded.
- soulofmischief 4y ago
  40 hours in a day? Teach me your secrets.
  - blahfuk 4y ago
    That’s in Canadian hours
    - GLGirty 4y ago
      Metric to imperial hours.
robswc 4y ago
>be very comfortable doing less than 40 hours a week, never working weekends, never doing crunch time, never being forced to work overtime, taking 6 weeks of vacation every year, sometimes more, and half of that is legally mandated This is pretty normal in the US too. Sure, its not "mandated" but everything besides 6 weeks of vacation is pretty common for SDE.

pbj1968 4y ago

Much cheaper to hire a US citizen versus bringing someone in on a visa. Have you actually ever gone through the process of hiring a foreign national?

tekknik 4y ago

> They will fire you in an instant to save cost, never increase your salary and come up with elaborate schemes to basically screw you. https://www.engadget.com/amazon-more-than-doubles-base-pay-for-corporate-and-tech-employees-104600027.html https://www.engadget.com/amazon-more-than-doubles-base-pay-f...