3 ms·

Honest question: is the wage data from imprisoned workers included in gender pay gap calculations? I could see arguments for and against. Seems like either way

Honest question: is the wage data from imprisoned workers included in gender pay gap calculations? I could see arguments for and against. Seems like either way you'd have to make this explicit since the vast majority of prisoners are men and the pay is so very low.

tsimionescu 4y ago
These are not "workers" in any common sense, and they are not receiving a "wage" per se. They are slaves, compelled to work under the 13th ammendment, and receive a stipend when they do so. The state could compel them to work even without this money (it's just more efficient to have a somewhat willing slave than one who is fighting you every step of the way). By contrast, a worker has a choice of who to work for, can negotiate their salary, and can choose not to work.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
ineedasername 4y ago
When analysing data you try to compare like to like. Similar positions at similar career levels & experience in similar economic sectors. If you want to explorer gender pay gaps while including prison inmates then the proper way to do that would be male inmate pay for similar jobs compared to female inmate pay.
- anonymoushn 4y ago
  People often think that controlling for the percentage of Fortune 500 CEOs that are women, which would reduce the gender pay gap one calculates, is not reasonable, because perhaps "Women are much less likely to be Fortune 500 CEOs" is an actual part of the gender pay gap. You are suggesting controlling for the percentage of slaves that are women. It seems like we ought to control for both slave status and Fortune 500 CEO status or for neither.
  - dataflow 4y ago
    I thought the gender pay gap was supposed to be about "when M and F take on the same job titles, on average M gets paid $X more than F"... was it not? Otherwise it sounds more like a "gender title gap" or "gender job disparity" or something like that, than a "gender pay gap".
    - zmgsabst 4y ago
      > gender pay gap was supposed to be about "when M and F take on the same job titles, on average M gets paid $X more than F"... was it not? It was not. The “gender pay gap” is comparing the average female pay to the average male pay, not comparing like for like. One of the main contributors to the purported pay gap is career choice — which is also captured in the BLS statistic that men are 92% of workplace deaths. Talking about a “pay gap” without discussing the “death gap” has always been dishonest.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      The widely cited 78 or 79 cents on the dollar figure does not take job choice into account. Adjusted for job title, it is 95 cents.
- crackercrews 4y ago
  I realize that is how one should do a comparison. But many comparisons do not. I am wondering if they include this type of labor. Maybe it wouldn't matter because the prison population is still small compared to the entire labor force. But for some age/race sub-groups it is actually a decent-sized chunk.

tsimionescu 4y ago

These are not "workers" in any common sense, and they are not receiving a "wage" per se. They are slaves, compelled to work under the 13th ammendment, and receive a stipend when they do so. The state could compel them to work even without this money (it's just more efficient to have a somewhat willing slave than one who is fighting you every step of the way). By contrast, a worker has a choice of who to work for, can negotiate their salary, and can choose not to work.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

ineedasername 4y ago

When analysing data you try to compare like to like. Similar positions at similar career levels & experience in similar economic sectors. If you want to explorer gender pay gaps while including prison inmates then the proper way to do that would be male inmate pay for similar jobs compared to female inmate pay.

anonymoushn 4y ago
People often think that controlling for the percentage of Fortune 500 CEOs that are women, which would reduce the gender pay gap one calculates, is not reasonable, because perhaps "Women are much less likely to be Fortune 500 CEOs" is an actual part of the gender pay gap. You are suggesting controlling for the percentage of slaves that are women. It seems like we ought to control for both slave status and Fortune 500 CEO status or for neither.
- dataflow 4y ago
  I thought the gender pay gap was supposed to be about "when M and F take on the same job titles, on average M gets paid $X more than F"... was it not? Otherwise it sounds more like a "gender title gap" or "gender job disparity" or something like that, than a "gender pay gap".
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    > gender pay gap was supposed to be about "when M and F take on the same job titles, on average M gets paid $X more than F"... was it not? It was not. The “gender pay gap” is comparing the average female pay to the average male pay, not comparing like for like. One of the main contributors to the purported pay gap is career choice — which is also captured in the BLS statistic that men are 92% of workplace deaths. Talking about a “pay gap” without discussing the “death gap” has always been dishonest.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    The widely cited 78 or 79 cents on the dollar figure does not take job choice into account. Adjusted for job title, it is 95 cents.
crackercrews 4y ago
I realize that is how one should do a comparison. But many comparisons do not. I am wondering if they include this type of labor. Maybe it wouldn't matter because the prison population is still small compared to the entire labor force. But for some age/race sub-groups it is actually a decent-sized chunk.