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As a result, AWS engineers are very much promotion oriented. This leads to two results: title inflation and disgruntled employees. L6 used to be a big deal but

As a result, AWS engineers are very much promotion oriented. This leads to two results: title inflation and disgruntled employees. L6 used to be a big deal but not any more. L7 is now the new L6. The challenge with this arrangement is that whoever got promoted early on but stayed in the same level get less in return. And apparently it's human's nature to compare. When engineers see that their peers get promoted to L7 (a role used to be considered almost impossible to reach) in three years for no particularly obvious reasons, they can barely hide their cold anger.

knolan 4y ago
That almost sounds like a cult.
- woah 4y ago
  You need to buy 10,000 hours of self improvement tapes to get to L7. Only the most enlightened have achieved it
- burntoutfire 4y ago
  A cult takes money from you and doesn't pay you a million a year or whatever these people are making.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    How much are they making for Amazon, though?
  - r00fus 4y ago
    Their work output is worth more than the compensation or Bezos wouldn't be authorizing it.
  - Rexxar 4y ago
    They give money but take your life time.
deanCommie 4y ago
Promotion-orientation is bad, but so are promotion levels that are considered "almost impossible to reach". Levels.fyi doesn't seem to agree with your title inflation evaluation: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Amazon,Microsoft&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Amazon,Microsoft&trac... It's only 3 data points, but it seems that Amazon Senior is comparable to Google senior, and it's Microsoft that inflates the Senior title.
- bigmutant 4y ago
  Sort of. The main issue is that AMZ/AWS doesn't differentiate (by title) between someone recently promoted to L6 (generally ~8-10 YOE) and someone deep in to L6 (~12-15 YOE). Other companies solve this with the Staff Engineer title, but AMZ doesn't have that. If you're an L6 who reports to an L7 Sr. Manager then you're functionally a Staff Engineer and supposed to be on the Principal track. Mileage varies across orgs/teams. Gist: "junior" L6 SDE is more like Google L5, "senior" L6 SDE tracks mostly with Google L6 (or even L7 in rare cases).
  - l8guy 4y ago
    Are you sure about this? I think it's more like Google junior L6 SDE is equivalent Uber L4.5, which itself is about the same as senior AA at Oracle (= like a L11 at Twitter).
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- hintymad 4y ago
  You’re right. Amazon’s L6 do not have larger packages than Google. On the other hand, Amazon has a flatter structure. Amazon’s L6 used to influence more than 100 engineers, advising general managers, owning an entire product line, if not more. Go figure.
  - amzn-throw 4y ago
    You're right, but when they adjusted the L6 role guideline (circa 2016), it was specifically to clarify that the L6 role was never intended to have that span of influence. Rather, every 2-pizza team (8-13 people) should have a sr. engineer. What at Google would be a Tech Lead.
vishnugupta 4y ago
> L7 (a role used to be considered almost impossible to reach) I can attest to this; worked there from mid 2000s to early 2010s. Principle Engineers, L7 ICs, were looked up as Gods back then. To an extent that a couple of projects by an L5 where it went through principal-review process was almost guaranteed to get them a promotion to L6. Back when I was there I thought pulling off L5-L6 required crazy work schedule (I couldn't so didn't) and L7 was well and truly beyond mortals. But now I hear they are doling out L7s like candy as they are getting increasingly desperate to fill their open head counts. How times change!
- Firmwarrior 4y ago
  Man, I worked at Amazon in the early 2010s, and I remember I was an L something and proud of it, but thought I'd never make it to L whatever. It was such a huge deal and a huge part of my life, and now I can't even remember which number it was.. I wish I'd spent less time working and more time doing stuff I cared about
  - the_biot 4y ago
    At least you picked up some life wisdom along the way.
  - jhugo 4y ago
    They should teach this lesson at school, but instead they reinforce the opposite.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
WalterBright 4y ago
The US military is the same way. Officers get promoted, or they retire. I.e. "up or out". In the AF, your performance reviews need to be "firewalled" or it's time to leave.
- vageli 4y ago
  > In the AF, your performance reviews need to be "firewalled" or it's time to leave. What does firewalling a performance review mean?
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    All the scores are at the max. "Firewalling" the throttle means full power (pushing it towards the firewall).
- taocoyote 4y ago
  Firewall fives, I forgot about that, or maybe blocked it from my memory. It’s the same for enlisted.
- pram 4y ago
  No kidding, my first EPR out of tech school had a bunch of 4s and when it came time to test for SSgt my combined points were so far off I just gave up and coasted until I got out. For the best though.

knolan 4y ago

That almost sounds like a cult.

woah 4y ago
You need to buy 10,000 hours of self improvement tapes to get to L7. Only the most enlightened have achieved it
burntoutfire 4y ago
A cult takes money from you and doesn't pay you a million a year or whatever these people are making.
- int_19h 4y ago
  How much are they making for Amazon, though?
- r00fus 4y ago
  Their work output is worth more than the compensation or Bezos wouldn't be authorizing it.
- Rexxar 4y ago
  They give money but take your life time.

deanCommie 4y ago

Promotion-orientation is bad, but so are promotion levels that are considered "almost impossible to reach". Levels.fyi doesn't seem to agree with your title inflation evaluation: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Amazon,Microsoft&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Amazon,Microsoft&trac... It's only 3 data points, but it seems that Amazon Senior is comparable to Google senior, and it's Microsoft that inflates the Senior title.

bigmutant 4y ago
Sort of. The main issue is that AMZ/AWS doesn't differentiate (by title) between someone recently promoted to L6 (generally ~8-10 YOE) and someone deep in to L6 (~12-15 YOE). Other companies solve this with the Staff Engineer title, but AMZ doesn't have that. If you're an L6 who reports to an L7 Sr. Manager then you're functionally a Staff Engineer and supposed to be on the Principal track. Mileage varies across orgs/teams. Gist: "junior" L6 SDE is more like Google L5, "senior" L6 SDE tracks mostly with Google L6 (or even L7 in rare cases).
- l8guy 4y ago
  Are you sure about this? I think it's more like Google junior L6 SDE is equivalent Uber L4.5, which itself is about the same as senior AA at Oracle (= like a L11 at Twitter).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
hintymad 4y ago
You’re right. Amazon’s L6 do not have larger packages than Google. On the other hand, Amazon has a flatter structure. Amazon’s L6 used to influence more than 100 engineers, advising general managers, owning an entire product line, if not more. Go figure.
- amzn-throw 4y ago
  You're right, but when they adjusted the L6 role guideline (circa 2016), it was specifically to clarify that the L6 role was never intended to have that span of influence. Rather, every 2-pizza team (8-13 people) should have a sr. engineer. What at Google would be a Tech Lead.

vishnugupta 4y ago

> L7 (a role used to be considered almost impossible to reach) I can attest to this; worked there from mid 2000s to early 2010s. Principle Engineers, L7 ICs, were looked up as Gods back then. To an extent that a couple of projects by an L5 where it went through principal-review process was almost guaranteed to get them a promotion to L6. Back when I was there I thought pulling off L5-L6 required crazy work schedule (I couldn't so didn't) and L7 was well and truly beyond mortals. But now I hear they are doling out L7s like candy as they are getting increasingly desperate to fill their open head counts. How times change!

Firmwarrior 4y ago
Man, I worked at Amazon in the early 2010s, and I remember I was an L something and proud of it, but thought I'd never make it to L whatever. It was such a huge deal and a huge part of my life, and now I can't even remember which number it was.. I wish I'd spent less time working and more time doing stuff I cared about
- the_biot 4y ago
  At least you picked up some life wisdom along the way.
- jhugo 4y ago
  They should teach this lesson at school, but instead they reinforce the opposite.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

WalterBright 4y ago

The US military is the same way. Officers get promoted, or they retire. I.e. "up or out". In the AF, your performance reviews need to be "firewalled" or it's time to leave.

vageli 4y ago
> In the AF, your performance reviews need to be "firewalled" or it's time to leave. What does firewalling a performance review mean?
- WalterBright 4y ago
  All the scores are at the max. "Firewalling" the throttle means full power (pushing it towards the firewall).
taocoyote 4y ago
Firewall fives, I forgot about that, or maybe blocked it from my memory. It’s the same for enlisted.
pram 4y ago
No kidding, my first EPR out of tech school had a bunch of 4s and when it came time to test for SSgt my combined points were so far off I just gave up and coasted until I got out. For the best though.