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And the right to determine the terms with with you negotiate away your labor is among the most sacred. Letting others do that for you is much closer to indentu

And the right to determine the terms with with you negotiate away your labor is among the most sacred. Letting others do that for you is much closer to indentured servitude or slavery. The problem with all of these collectivsts' arguments is that they all believe themselves to be in their utopia's social planning committee rather than themselves a laborer. And that's if they made it past the "shoot all the troublemakers" phase of their revolution.

joshuamorton 4y ago
You're free to work at a non-unionized company, of course, or even found your own.
toomuchtodo 4y ago
What you advocate for, not organizing, is what got us to the indentured servitude and slavery current state (US centric of course). Those who can’t recognize that are beyond hope (as they ignore the economic data clearly demonstrating the benefits), and to cater to them or entertain their desire to maintain the status quo helps no one but themselves. Edit: This forum has some sort of empathy deficiency in aggregate.
- busterarm 4y ago
  - andrepd 4y ago
    Again, kindly notice that there are other people in the planet besides yourself.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
    You can work in tech and your work could be accurately described as indentured servitude. Tech if anything has a disproportionate amount of one specific kind: immigrants on employer specific visas.
    - busterarm 4y ago
      Points for being kind-of true. First off, let's establish that the oft-abused H1-Bs have salary minimums that put them in the top 5% of earners in the United States and in most cases the top 99.9(999)% of earners in their home countries. Second, the visas don't prevent you from seeking employment through other employers, but at certain phases of your status here between visa, green card and resident it will reset your timetable. Third, while the timetable for people from say India is absurdly long, from many other nations it is much much shorter. Fourth, at all times visa holders have the loophole of getting married to get a better visa. Most people living somewhere for an extended period of time at least have the social skill to negotiate setting up a family (citation: the continued survival of the human race). Even if you marry another immigrant, both visa-holders have the convenience of opting to use the shortest schedule table between both nations. You'll often see, for example, Indian visa holders marrying Australian visa holders...The current schedule for new Indian applications is like 35+ years while the Australian schedule is ~5. So yes, there are people in somewhat abusive situations. They stay in them because it's still an opportunity that puts them ahead of at least 95% of the world's population. Is that like indentured servitude or slavery? No, not really.
      - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
        Um, with polite response: a lot of these points are ethically dubious and at best say “they’re well paid, so they don’t really count”. At one point it says one can marry to get out of their indentured servitude, which… yikes, dude, imagine what a dangerous position that puts someone in if they can’t divorce a potentially dangerous relationship for fear of deportation.
        busterarm 4y ago
        Don't be ridiculous. The overwhelming majority of people are going to get married. More than 40% of them to someone they meet at work. That's just life. Stop interpreting things the most hyperbolic way possible. Basic statistical facts paint quite a different picture than you are.
andrepd 4y ago
I did not know "collective bargaining in a capitalist wage-labour system" was actually synonymous with "proletariat uprising", but here we are.
- busterarm 4y ago
  Forgive me, but in NYC where I'm from nearly 100% of the people talking about unions are Wobblies (IWW people) and nearly 100% of them are tankies but even if they aren't their union advocates for a revolution anyway.

joshuamorton 4y ago

You're free to work at a non-unionized company, of course, or even found your own.

toomuchtodo 4y ago

What you advocate for, not organizing, is what got us to the indentured servitude and slavery current state (US centric of course). Those who can’t recognize that are beyond hope (as they ignore the economic data clearly demonstrating the benefits), and to cater to them or entertain their desire to maintain the status quo helps no one but themselves. Edit: This forum has some sort of empathy deficiency in aggregate.

busterarm 4y ago
- andrepd 4y ago
  Again, kindly notice that there are other people in the planet besides yourself.
- SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
  You can work in tech and your work could be accurately described as indentured servitude. Tech if anything has a disproportionate amount of one specific kind: immigrants on employer specific visas.
  - busterarm 4y ago
    Points for being kind-of true. First off, let's establish that the oft-abused H1-Bs have salary minimums that put them in the top 5% of earners in the United States and in most cases the top 99.9(999)% of earners in their home countries. Second, the visas don't prevent you from seeking employment through other employers, but at certain phases of your status here between visa, green card and resident it will reset your timetable. Third, while the timetable for people from say India is absurdly long, from many other nations it is much much shorter. Fourth, at all times visa holders have the loophole of getting married to get a better visa. Most people living somewhere for an extended period of time at least have the social skill to negotiate setting up a family (citation: the continued survival of the human race). Even if you marry another immigrant, both visa-holders have the convenience of opting to use the shortest schedule table between both nations. You'll often see, for example, Indian visa holders marrying Australian visa holders...The current schedule for new Indian applications is like 35+ years while the Australian schedule is ~5. So yes, there are people in somewhat abusive situations. They stay in them because it's still an opportunity that puts them ahead of at least 95% of the world's population. Is that like indentured servitude or slavery? No, not really.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
      Um, with polite response: a lot of these points are ethically dubious and at best say “they’re well paid, so they don’t really count”. At one point it says one can marry to get out of their indentured servitude, which… yikes, dude, imagine what a dangerous position that puts someone in if they can’t divorce a potentially dangerous relationship for fear of deportation.
      - busterarm 4y ago
        Don't be ridiculous. The overwhelming majority of people are going to get married. More than 40% of them to someone they meet at work. That's just life. Stop interpreting things the most hyperbolic way possible. Basic statistical facts paint quite a different picture than you are.

andrepd 4y ago

I did not know "collective bargaining in a capitalist wage-labour system" was actually synonymous with "proletariat uprising", but here we are.

busterarm 4y ago
Forgive me, but in NYC where I'm from nearly 100% of the people talking about unions are Wobblies (IWW people) and nearly 100% of them are tankies but even if they aren't their union advocates for a revolution anyway.