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> If the US went the way of Europe, technological innovation would slow dramatically, which I'll argue is a bad outcome for the world in the long run. IRL data

> If the US went the way of Europe, technological innovation would slow dramatically, which I'll argue is a bad outcome for the world in the long run. IRL datapoints > counterfactuals: https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/projects/nordic-state-innovation/ https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/projects/nordic-state-i... Also I said "Google it" for a reason. You picked an abstract one, and Sweden still beat us! And who could have guessed (me!), but Netherlands, Denmark, and Finland sit there in the top 10 as well :) [0] > What do you think the cost of basic goods would rise to if all the Chinese manufacturing centers unionized? You're not only dodging my point, but your own. You asked what was best for society. 0: https://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2021/article_0008.html https://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2021/article_0008... e: Man the "mooching" argument, in this context specifically, is really gonna stick with me. In a work meeting once, someone with knowledge said that each engineer in my org was earning the company $1.5-3 million. This is against a ~$200k salary. This is kind of subjective, but as an """innovator""", the idea that Finland is the one mooching off me is _hilarious_. I'm not gonna comment on what I "deserve" though because dessert theory isn't sound anyway.

adam_arthur 4y ago
Where do you think those earnings go in the long run? In a competitive market margins get driven down, and profitability feeds into lower cost of goods. E.g. cloud providers must provide cheaper and cheaper service to stay competitive with other cloud providers. This in turn drives down costs for all technology in society. Sure a union could try to take that profit and feed it into wages instead, but that's worse for society in the end. When profit margins maintain at excessive levels it's typically an indication that there's either a first mover advantage, or the company is a pseudo-monopoly. I'd argue there are some big cases where that applies today
- bestcoder69 4y ago
  > Sure a union could try to take that profit and feed it into wages instead, but that's worse for society in the end. Yeah, that's the whole assumption I'm challenging with real world data. Your ideas sound great on paper or in a vacuum, though. This conversation is way asymmetric, where I'm the only person pointing to facts you can look at with your eyes, so I'm gonna leave and wish you luck with your theories. PS: > Chinese manufacturing. Manufacturing that is not unionized, by the way. Unintentional comedy? Natural language model trained on Econ podcasts? Arguing from opposite day? Or the most embarrassing gaffe you could have possibly made in this convo? Not that their unions are good. Just a funny thing to write, caveat-free.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > drives down costs for all technology in society I am not familiar enough with the data to argue one way or another. But a counterargument would involve productivity. There are several fields where good-paying shops run rings around their budget-minded peers. Even for relatively unskilled roles, e.g. Costco. Sometimes consumers care about that directly. More often, it shows up in productivity. Again, can't argue one way or another. Removing competition opens up novel channels for corruption. But I wouldn't say that a conclusion can be reached from first principles.
  - adam_arthur 4y ago
    Of course I'm speaking from theory in a vacuum. In the real world competitors don't always form immediately, it can take quite awhile. But the broad strokes are true, and bear out over time, barring monopoly formation in a given sector, free information etc. Of course Costco does have competitors, they just haven't been able to execute as well up to this point.

adam_arthur 4y ago

Where do you think those earnings go in the long run? In a competitive market margins get driven down, and profitability feeds into lower cost of goods. E.g. cloud providers must provide cheaper and cheaper service to stay competitive with other cloud providers. This in turn drives down costs for all technology in society. Sure a union could try to take that profit and feed it into wages instead, but that's worse for society in the end. When profit margins maintain at excessive levels it's typically an indication that there's either a first mover advantage, or the company is a pseudo-monopoly. I'd argue there are some big cases where that applies today

bestcoder69 4y ago
> Sure a union could try to take that profit and feed it into wages instead, but that's worse for society in the end. Yeah, that's the whole assumption I'm challenging with real world data. Your ideas sound great on paper or in a vacuum, though. This conversation is way asymmetric, where I'm the only person pointing to facts you can look at with your eyes, so I'm gonna leave and wish you luck with your theories. PS: > Chinese manufacturing. Manufacturing that is not unionized, by the way. Unintentional comedy? Natural language model trained on Econ podcasts? Arguing from opposite day? Or the most embarrassing gaffe you could have possibly made in this convo? Not that their unions are good. Just a funny thing to write, caveat-free.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> drives down costs for all technology in society I am not familiar enough with the data to argue one way or another. But a counterargument would involve productivity. There are several fields where good-paying shops run rings around their budget-minded peers. Even for relatively unskilled roles, e.g. Costco. Sometimes consumers care about that directly. More often, it shows up in productivity. Again, can't argue one way or another. Removing competition opens up novel channels for corruption. But I wouldn't say that a conclusion can be reached from first principles.
- adam_arthur 4y ago
  Of course I'm speaking from theory in a vacuum. In the real world competitors don't always form immediately, it can take quite awhile. But the broad strokes are true, and bear out over time, barring monopoly formation in a given sector, free information etc. Of course Costco does have competitors, they just haven't been able to execute as well up to this point.