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It's a good thing Europe can mooch off US innovation and Chinese manufacturing. Manufacturing that is not unionized, by the way. If the US went the way of Euro

It's a good thing Europe can mooch off US innovation and Chinese manufacturing. Manufacturing that is not unionized, by the way. If the US went the way of Europe, technological innovation would slow dramatically, which I'll argue is a bad outcome for the world in the long run. What do you think the cost of basic goods would rise to if all the Chinese manufacturing centers unionized?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bestcoder69 4y ago
> If the US went the way of Europe, technological innovation would slow dramatically, which I'll argue is a bad outcome for the world in the long run. IRL datapoints > counterfactuals: https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/projects/nordic-state-innovation/ https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/projects/nordic-state-i... Also I said "Google it" for a reason. You picked an abstract one, and Sweden still beat us! And who could have guessed (me!), but Netherlands, Denmark, and Finland sit there in the top 10 as well :) [0] > What do you think the cost of basic goods would rise to if all the Chinese manufacturing centers unionized? You're not only dodging my point, but your own. You asked what was best for society. 0: https://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2021/article_0008.html https://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2021/article_0008... e: Man the "mooching" argument, in this context specifically, is really gonna stick with me. In a work meeting once, someone with knowledge said that each engineer in my org was earning the company $1.5-3 million. This is against a ~$200k salary. This is kind of subjective, but as an """innovator""", the idea that Finland is the one mooching off me is _hilarious_. I'm not gonna comment on what I "deserve" though because dessert theory isn't sound anyway.
- adam_arthur 4y ago
  Where do you think those earnings go in the long run? In a competitive market margins get driven down, and profitability feeds into lower cost of goods. E.g. cloud providers must provide cheaper and cheaper service to stay competitive with other cloud providers. This in turn drives down costs for all technology in society. Sure a union could try to take that profit and feed it into wages instead, but that's worse for society in the end. When profit margins maintain at excessive levels it's typically an indication that there's either a first mover advantage, or the company is a pseudo-monopoly. I'd argue there are some big cases where that applies today
  - bestcoder69 4y ago
    > Sure a union could try to take that profit and feed it into wages instead, but that's worse for society in the end. Yeah, that's the whole assumption I'm challenging with real world data. Your ideas sound great on paper or in a vacuum, though. This conversation is way asymmetric, where I'm the only person pointing to facts you can look at with your eyes, so I'm gonna leave and wish you luck with your theories. PS: > Chinese manufacturing. Manufacturing that is not unionized, by the way. Unintentional comedy? Natural language model trained on Econ podcasts? Arguing from opposite day? Or the most embarrassing gaffe you could have possibly made in this convo? Not that their unions are good. Just a funny thing to write, caveat-free.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > drives down costs for all technology in society I am not familiar enough with the data to argue one way or another. But a counterargument would involve productivity. There are several fields where good-paying shops run rings around their budget-minded peers. Even for relatively unskilled roles, e.g. Costco. Sometimes consumers care about that directly. More often, it shows up in productivity. Again, can't argue one way or another. Removing competition opens up novel channels for corruption. But I wouldn't say that a conclusion can be reached from first principles.
    - adam_arthur 4y ago
      Of course I'm speaking from theory in a vacuum. In the real world competitors don't always form immediately, it can take quite awhile. But the broad strokes are true, and bear out over time, barring monopoly formation in a given sector, free information etc. Of course Costco does have competitors, they just haven't been able to execute as well up to this point.
jltsiren 4y ago
The US is not particularly innovative. Due to historical and geographic circumstances, it's in a unique position to attract foreign talent and foreign innovations and to monetize them. It's a good environment for doing business. There is plenty of capital available, and the laws are usually reasonable. It's a large country that's sufficiently centralized that you don't have to localize everything for each state. And it's a stable environment that has mostly been isolated from the rest of the world and not touched by war in over 150 years. As a drawback, the system really favors those who own over those who work. Even in places like the Silicon Valley, how much of the wealth goes to those who innovate and how much goes to those who fund the innovations? And how much goes to local property owners who just happened to be in the right place at the right time? Americans don't study STEM as often as people in other developed countries, because they correctly see where the money is. There are many top STEM schools, but even they largely consist of foreign talent teaching foreign talent. If the US went the way of Europe and stopped attracting foreign talent, I have no idea what would happen to tech innovation. The innovators and the innovations would still be there, but maybe there would not be as many people capable of taking advantage of the innovations.
- andrepd 4y ago
  > As a drawback, the system really favors those who own over those who work. Even in places like the Silicon Valley, how much of the wealth goes to those who innovate and how much goes to those who fund the innovations? And how much goes to local property owners who just happened to be in the right place at the right time? The crucial paragraph.
antisthenes 4y ago
> It's a good thing Europe can mooch off US innovation and Chinese manufacturing. Manufacturing that is not unionized, by the way. You have it completely wrong. The US is mooching off of EU and Chinese brain talent and has done so for the past 75 years, since the end of WWII. Most innovation that occurs in the US has been done thanks to exploiting highly educated labor that migrated here from elsewhere on the planet. If we're talking about the tech success of Silicon Valley, again that has mostly been mooching off of the lack of regulations regarding the sale and use of personal user data. Thankfully, EU is finally beginning to install some protections in that sense.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bestcoder69 4y ago

> If the US went the way of Europe, technological innovation would slow dramatically, which I'll argue is a bad outcome for the world in the long run. IRL datapoints > counterfactuals: https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/projects/nordic-state-innovation/ https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/projects/nordic-state-i... Also I said "Google it" for a reason. You picked an abstract one, and Sweden still beat us! And who could have guessed (me!), but Netherlands, Denmark, and Finland sit there in the top 10 as well :) [0] > What do you think the cost of basic goods would rise to if all the Chinese manufacturing centers unionized? You're not only dodging my point, but your own. You asked what was best for society. 0: https://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2021/article_0008.html https://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2021/article_0008... e: Man the "mooching" argument, in this context specifically, is really gonna stick with me. In a work meeting once, someone with knowledge said that each engineer in my org was earning the company $1.5-3 million. This is against a ~$200k salary. This is kind of subjective, but as an """innovator""", the idea that Finland is the one mooching off me is _hilarious_. I'm not gonna comment on what I "deserve" though because dessert theory isn't sound anyway.

adam_arthur 4y ago
Where do you think those earnings go in the long run? In a competitive market margins get driven down, and profitability feeds into lower cost of goods. E.g. cloud providers must provide cheaper and cheaper service to stay competitive with other cloud providers. This in turn drives down costs for all technology in society. Sure a union could try to take that profit and feed it into wages instead, but that's worse for society in the end. When profit margins maintain at excessive levels it's typically an indication that there's either a first mover advantage, or the company is a pseudo-monopoly. I'd argue there are some big cases where that applies today
- bestcoder69 4y ago
  > Sure a union could try to take that profit and feed it into wages instead, but that's worse for society in the end. Yeah, that's the whole assumption I'm challenging with real world data. Your ideas sound great on paper or in a vacuum, though. This conversation is way asymmetric, where I'm the only person pointing to facts you can look at with your eyes, so I'm gonna leave and wish you luck with your theories. PS: > Chinese manufacturing. Manufacturing that is not unionized, by the way. Unintentional comedy? Natural language model trained on Econ podcasts? Arguing from opposite day? Or the most embarrassing gaffe you could have possibly made in this convo? Not that their unions are good. Just a funny thing to write, caveat-free.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > drives down costs for all technology in society I am not familiar enough with the data to argue one way or another. But a counterargument would involve productivity. There are several fields where good-paying shops run rings around their budget-minded peers. Even for relatively unskilled roles, e.g. Costco. Sometimes consumers care about that directly. More often, it shows up in productivity. Again, can't argue one way or another. Removing competition opens up novel channels for corruption. But I wouldn't say that a conclusion can be reached from first principles.
  - adam_arthur 4y ago
    Of course I'm speaking from theory in a vacuum. In the real world competitors don't always form immediately, it can take quite awhile. But the broad strokes are true, and bear out over time, barring monopoly formation in a given sector, free information etc. Of course Costco does have competitors, they just haven't been able to execute as well up to this point.

jltsiren 4y ago

The US is not particularly innovative. Due to historical and geographic circumstances, it's in a unique position to attract foreign talent and foreign innovations and to monetize them. It's a good environment for doing business. There is plenty of capital available, and the laws are usually reasonable. It's a large country that's sufficiently centralized that you don't have to localize everything for each state. And it's a stable environment that has mostly been isolated from the rest of the world and not touched by war in over 150 years. As a drawback, the system really favors those who own over those who work. Even in places like the Silicon Valley, how much of the wealth goes to those who innovate and how much goes to those who fund the innovations? And how much goes to local property owners who just happened to be in the right place at the right time? Americans don't study STEM as often as people in other developed countries, because they correctly see where the money is. There are many top STEM schools, but even they largely consist of foreign talent teaching foreign talent. If the US went the way of Europe and stopped attracting foreign talent, I have no idea what would happen to tech innovation. The innovators and the innovations would still be there, but maybe there would not be as many people capable of taking advantage of the innovations.

andrepd 4y ago
> As a drawback, the system really favors those who own over those who work. Even in places like the Silicon Valley, how much of the wealth goes to those who innovate and how much goes to those who fund the innovations? And how much goes to local property owners who just happened to be in the right place at the right time? The crucial paragraph.

antisthenes 4y ago

> It's a good thing Europe can mooch off US innovation and Chinese manufacturing. Manufacturing that is not unionized, by the way. You have it completely wrong. The US is mooching off of EU and Chinese brain talent and has done so for the past 75 years, since the end of WWII. Most innovation that occurs in the US has been done thanks to exploiting highly educated labor that migrated here from elsewhere on the planet. If we're talking about the tech success of Silicon Valley, again that has mostly been mooching off of the lack of regulations regarding the sale and use of personal user data. Thankfully, EU is finally beginning to install some protections in that sense.