5 ms·

A recently unionized workplace can get hostile to workers who opposed it. This is fine by me: if you opposed the majority of your coworkers in their struggle fo

A recently unionized workplace can get hostile to workers who opposed it. This is fine by me: if you opposed the majority of your coworkers in their struggle for better material working conditions, then you should feel their resentment.

djbebs 4y ago
Can we also make a hostile work environment to pro-union employees? Or is this another one of those hypocrite things?
- pessimizer 4y ago
  The people who could create that hostile work environment refuse to cooperate with each other.
- vkou 4y ago
  > Can we also make a hostile work environment to pro-union employees? That's already the default in any non-union workplace, which is to say, the majority of workplaces.
- lostcolony 4y ago
  What...sort of environment do you think caused them to unionize?
  - throwaway_95283 4y ago
    One where people were expected spend more time working than being offended.
    - andrepd 4y ago
      Ah yes, labour unions, that invention of 2010s woke culture... You seem to be a bit confused.
      - lostcolony 4y ago
        "If working with dangerous machinery without union representation for 14 hours a day, 7 days a week, for company scrip was good enough for my great-grandfather when he was 8 years old, it's good enough for me!"
- throwaway_95283 4y ago
  Just move the office to a low tax country / state. Union people will refuse to move there.
  - kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
    Who wouldn't want to move from a vibrant coastal city to a suburb in Arkansas?
    - throwaway_95283 4y ago
      Given that SF is losing people and Boise is gaining them, apparently many people want to make that move. I guess some people think human excrement on the street isn't very "vibrant", they're probably racists or something for not liking it I'm sure.
      - kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
        This is 75% housing prices, 24% people leaving who never wanted to be there in the first place but moved for tech jobs, and 1% human excrement. You can't fool me about Boise. I've been there.
    - busterarm 4y ago
      My relocation from NYC to Miami has been nothing but roses.
- kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
  It already is hostile to pro-union workers, usually. This is part of the resentment that sets in. After months of surveillance and harassment, your pro-union coworkers will be pissed that you chose to side with the people who surveilled and harassed them.
- ABCLAW 4y ago
  >Can we also make a hostile work environment to pro-union employees? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_busting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_busting Historically, it would be hard to argue otherwise. It is lucrative to remove bargaining leverage from labor.
pessimizer 4y ago
This is a more anti-union post than the one it's replying to (and also reference-free.)
- kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
  The flip side is that a union shop, especially a recently unionized one, is much more tight-knit. I still have close friends from a union struggle years ago. And you have job security, collective bargaining power, and Weingarten rights for the duration of your time at that company.
busterarm 4y ago
Actually most people were union-supportive but thought it either wasn't the right time or would negatively impact the company in the long-run. Only a small minority (maybe 15%) of the company were activist and the rest were "union? okay cool!". There were some really dirty tactics used by the activist camps (on both sides) and even some press written about such at the time. Things like demanding that management accept the union without an employee vote (back when their internal polling showed that only 30% would vote to unionize...). Negative articles in the press, etc. The tactics employed and employee-vs-employee culture caused a number of folks I know to leave. Some even from the pro-union side.
- kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
  Only 15% being activist is usually the case. Most people just participate in conversations and voting. Internal polling is always skewed, which is why you have the NLRB process. Negative articles in the press about working conditions and demanding that the management accept the union without going through a vote are both normal. Pretending they're "dirty" is kind of weird. And if the people left, that's fine. I instigated and ran an organizing committee and left the shop after we won. It's a draining struggle, and one that wouldn't have been successful if things weren't already fucked up for a lot of people at Kickstarter. Ultimately, the success of a union campaign shows that people don't think informal channels will get them what they need at their jobs, and they're willing to commit to long-term conflict in order to make it happen. They wouldn't do that over mild dissatisfaction.
icelancer 4y ago
It's not possible that people who were anti-union could think that working conditions would not improve with the addition of a union?
- kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
  My comment holds regardless. Whether they merely wanted to solicit their boss's favor or had some ideological objection, they still opposed it.
bjornsing 4y ago
Yes. I think that’s exactly how Mao phrased it. ;)
- kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
  "Power flows from the barrel of a gun": broke "Power flows from not being chatty with your coworkers": woke

djbebs 4y ago

Can we also make a hostile work environment to pro-union employees? Or is this another one of those hypocrite things?

pessimizer 4y ago
The people who could create that hostile work environment refuse to cooperate with each other.
vkou 4y ago
> Can we also make a hostile work environment to pro-union employees? That's already the default in any non-union workplace, which is to say, the majority of workplaces.
lostcolony 4y ago
What...sort of environment do you think caused them to unionize?
- throwaway_95283 4y ago
  One where people were expected spend more time working than being offended.
  - andrepd 4y ago
    Ah yes, labour unions, that invention of 2010s woke culture... You seem to be a bit confused.
    - lostcolony 4y ago
      "If working with dangerous machinery without union representation for 14 hours a day, 7 days a week, for company scrip was good enough for my great-grandfather when he was 8 years old, it's good enough for me!"
throwaway_95283 4y ago
Just move the office to a low tax country / state. Union people will refuse to move there.
- kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
  Who wouldn't want to move from a vibrant coastal city to a suburb in Arkansas?
  - throwaway_95283 4y ago
    Given that SF is losing people and Boise is gaining them, apparently many people want to make that move. I guess some people think human excrement on the street isn't very "vibrant", they're probably racists or something for not liking it I'm sure.
    - kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
      This is 75% housing prices, 24% people leaving who never wanted to be there in the first place but moved for tech jobs, and 1% human excrement. You can't fool me about Boise. I've been there.
  - busterarm 4y ago
    My relocation from NYC to Miami has been nothing but roses.
kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
It already is hostile to pro-union workers, usually. This is part of the resentment that sets in. After months of surveillance and harassment, your pro-union coworkers will be pissed that you chose to side with the people who surveilled and harassed them.
ABCLAW 4y ago
>Can we also make a hostile work environment to pro-union employees? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_busting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_busting Historically, it would be hard to argue otherwise. It is lucrative to remove bargaining leverage from labor.

pessimizer 4y ago

This is a more anti-union post than the one it's replying to (and also reference-free.)

kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
The flip side is that a union shop, especially a recently unionized one, is much more tight-knit. I still have close friends from a union struggle years ago. And you have job security, collective bargaining power, and Weingarten rights for the duration of your time at that company.

busterarm 4y ago

Actually most people were union-supportive but thought it either wasn't the right time or would negatively impact the company in the long-run. Only a small minority (maybe 15%) of the company were activist and the rest were "union? okay cool!". There were some really dirty tactics used by the activist camps (on both sides) and even some press written about such at the time. Things like demanding that management accept the union without an employee vote (back when their internal polling showed that only 30% would vote to unionize...). Negative articles in the press, etc. The tactics employed and employee-vs-employee culture caused a number of folks I know to leave. Some even from the pro-union side.

kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
Only 15% being activist is usually the case. Most people just participate in conversations and voting. Internal polling is always skewed, which is why you have the NLRB process. Negative articles in the press about working conditions and demanding that the management accept the union without going through a vote are both normal. Pretending they're "dirty" is kind of weird. And if the people left, that's fine. I instigated and ran an organizing committee and left the shop after we won. It's a draining struggle, and one that wouldn't have been successful if things weren't already fucked up for a lot of people at Kickstarter. Ultimately, the success of a union campaign shows that people don't think informal channels will get them what they need at their jobs, and they're willing to commit to long-term conflict in order to make it happen. They wouldn't do that over mild dissatisfaction.

icelancer 4y ago

It's not possible that people who were anti-union could think that working conditions would not improve with the addition of a union?

kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
My comment holds regardless. Whether they merely wanted to solicit their boss's favor or had some ideological objection, they still opposed it.

bjornsing 4y ago

Yes. I think that’s exactly how Mao phrased it. ;)

kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
"Power flows from the barrel of a gun": broke "Power flows from not being chatty with your coworkers": woke