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As I understand it, Boring Company’s vision is to decrease the capital cost of public transit by using commodity carriages (Tesla cars, eventually self-driving)

As I understand it, Boring Company’s vision is to decrease the capital cost of public transit by using commodity carriages (Tesla cars, eventually self-driving) and smaller tunnels. The Vegas Loop test case appeared to work okay, but in the videos I saw, was subject to congestion in the stations. My layman’s understanding of the topic is that the major expense for subways is the platforms more than the tunnels. The article says Boring’s platforms will be 1.5-20 million to build. Anybody know how that compares to traditional construction in similar soil?

gamblor956 4y ago
The $2 million/mile number is misleading, since Boring Co only includes the cost of tunneling itself, but public projects usually fold in all of the other costs related to the project into their per mile figures. Generally, the actual cost of tunneling depends on the soil and route conditions; for example, most subways are tunneled under existing infrastructure and buildings and thus the process of tunneling also includes numerous measures to prevent damage to existing structures. Urban tunnels must also contend with undeclared but still utilized utility and power lines which must be rerouted. Additionally, businesses and residents impacted by the construction are usually compensated for harms caused by the construction (i.e., excess noise, loss of accessibility, etc.) When you're tunneling under a city it's going to be expensive, and that's generally where you want to tunnel because that's where people actually want to go. The Vegas tunnel has avoided that so far because it's built under a low-use private road), but that's going to change when it has to go under the Strip and under the Casinos. They're suddenly going to discover why public transportation tunnels are so expensive. Note that the LA Metro subways (specifically, the current Purple Line Extension) cost significantly less than $1 billion/mile where they get to tunnel under roads, but more than $1 billion/mile where they are tunneling under buildings or near the tar pits. Similarly, the "Regional Connector" project was ahead of schedule...until it ran into undisclosed utility lines downtown and had to spend a year rerouting hundreds of unmapped utilities lines.
V__ 4y ago
The Boring company doesn't have any new tech that makes their tunnels cheaper, they are just smaller [1]. Smaller tunnels also mean less capacity, that's why I would argue that the total cost doesn't matter as much as the "cost per capacity". Even if Boring tunnels and stations are cheaper, how big is the throughput? A New York Subway car [2] can carry up to 240 people per car and costs $2 million. If four people sit in a Tesla that would be 60 Teslas just to match that and cost $3 million. The Loop apparently can only transport 800 people an hour, for a 0.8-mile track [3]. The one subway car could (assuming conservatively 5min at the station and 5min for travel) transport 1440 people an hour. Two subway cars, 2880 people an hour. A subway can scale, Teslas which each need a parking space for entering and exiting can't. Also, a ticket on the Vegas loop may cost $12, that is not a public transport solution but a joyride vanity project. [1] https://observer.com/2021/07/elon-musk-boring-company-tunnel-florida-tech-expert/ https://observer.com/2021/07/elon-musk-boring-company-tunnel... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R160_(New_York_City_Subway_car) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R160_(New_York_City_Subway_car... [3] https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/16/elon-musks-las-vegas-loop-might-only-carry-a-fraction-of-the-passengers-it-promised/?guccounter=1 https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/16/elon-musks-las-vegas-loop-...
- lesuorac 4y ago
  > The Loop apparently can only transport 800 people an hour, for a 0.8-mile track [3]. The one subway car could (assuming conservatively 5min at the station and 5min for travel) transport 1440 people an hour. At that point would it just make sense to have a continuous system (like Tomorrowland [1]) or those belts at the airport? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrowland_Transit_Authority_PeopleMover https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrowland_Transit_Authority...
  - V__ 4y ago
    If one wants to keep the tunnels small, then probably. But I assume that due to safety concerns that wouldn't be possible. Maybe with a closed cabin?

gamblor956 4y ago

The $2 million/mile number is misleading, since Boring Co only includes the cost of tunneling itself, but public projects usually fold in all of the other costs related to the project into their per mile figures. Generally, the actual cost of tunneling depends on the soil and route conditions; for example, most subways are tunneled under existing infrastructure and buildings and thus the process of tunneling also includes numerous measures to prevent damage to existing structures. Urban tunnels must also contend with undeclared but still utilized utility and power lines which must be rerouted. Additionally, businesses and residents impacted by the construction are usually compensated for harms caused by the construction (i.e., excess noise, loss of accessibility, etc.) When you're tunneling under a city it's going to be expensive, and that's generally where you want to tunnel because that's where people actually want to go. The Vegas tunnel has avoided that so far because it's built under a low-use private road), but that's going to change when it has to go under the Strip and under the Casinos. They're suddenly going to discover why public transportation tunnels are so expensive. Note that the LA Metro subways (specifically, the current Purple Line Extension) cost significantly less than $1 billion/mile where they get to tunnel under roads, but more than $1 billion/mile where they are tunneling under buildings or near the tar pits. Similarly, the "Regional Connector" project was ahead of schedule...until it ran into undisclosed utility lines downtown and had to spend a year rerouting hundreds of unmapped utilities lines.

V__ 4y ago

The Boring company doesn't have any new tech that makes their tunnels cheaper, they are just smaller [1]. Smaller tunnels also mean less capacity, that's why I would argue that the total cost doesn't matter as much as the "cost per capacity". Even if Boring tunnels and stations are cheaper, how big is the throughput? A New York Subway car [2] can carry up to 240 people per car and costs $2 million. If four people sit in a Tesla that would be 60 Teslas just to match that and cost $3 million. The Loop apparently can only transport 800 people an hour, for a 0.8-mile track [3]. The one subway car could (assuming conservatively 5min at the station and 5min for travel) transport 1440 people an hour. Two subway cars, 2880 people an hour. A subway can scale, Teslas which each need a parking space for entering and exiting can't. Also, a ticket on the Vegas loop may cost $12, that is not a public transport solution but a joyride vanity project. [1] https://observer.com/2021/07/elon-musk-boring-company-tunnel-florida-tech-expert/ https://observer.com/2021/07/elon-musk-boring-company-tunnel... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R160_(New_York_City_Subway_car) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R160_(New_York_City_Subway_car... [3] https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/16/elon-musks-las-vegas-loop-might-only-carry-a-fraction-of-the-passengers-it-promised/?guccounter=1 https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/16/elon-musks-las-vegas-loop-...

lesuorac 4y ago
> The Loop apparently can only transport 800 people an hour, for a 0.8-mile track [3]. The one subway car could (assuming conservatively 5min at the station and 5min for travel) transport 1440 people an hour. At that point would it just make sense to have a continuous system (like Tomorrowland [1]) or those belts at the airport? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrowland_Transit_Authority_PeopleMover https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrowland_Transit_Authority...
- V__ 4y ago
  If one wants to keep the tunnels small, then probably. But I assume that due to safety concerns that wouldn't be possible. Maybe with a closed cabin?