4 ms·

That doesn't seem right either. Do you actually have any evidence for what you're saying?

rsynnott 4y ago
... I mean, what did you think the Spanish Inquisition was up to? Being particularly careless with matches? For instance, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-fé https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-fé (This wasn't unique to Spain, but Spain was certainly an epicenter, due to a large Jewish population forcibly converted during and after the Reconquista)
- anon291 4y ago
  I'm not going to excuse the church, but this was actually the civil punishment. The church just declared you an apostate or not, and civil authorities would punish you (BTW, most European countries still have similar laws with just lesser punishments and no church involvement... IIRC, blasphemy is still a prosecutable crime in Germany)
  - skissane 4y ago
    What about people executed for heresy in the Papal States? There are many examples, but the most famous would be Giordano Bruno, burnt at the stake for heresy in Rome in 1600. The whole "it was the civil authorities not the Church" line doesn't really work there, since the Pope was ultimately in charge of both, even if the two were still nominally distinct. Even in the case of the Spainish Inquisition, where the Church-va-State distinction was somewhat more real – you have to ask whether the Church encouraged or discouraged the civil authorities from imposing capital punishment on those it convicted of heresy. I think you will find that the answer was very much "encourage", not "discourage" or neutral. "We didn't execute anybody, we just encouraged the government to execute them" is a rather laughable defence.
    - olddustytrail 4y ago
      If you can describe exactly what Bruno's heresy was and the effect it had, I'm happy to continue this conversation. If you can't, then it's just a waste of my time.
    - anon291 4y ago
      > – you have to ask whether the Church encouraged or discouraged the civil authorities from imposing capital punishment on those it convicted of heresy That's literally why I started off my comment with "I'm not going to excuse the church". You're absolutely right that there ought to have been a reckoning with the consequences.
- olddustytrail 4y ago
  The Spanish Inquisition was civil, not church. The link you provided states that explicitly. I repeat: Do you actually have any evidence for what you're saying?
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    I mean, it was under the control of the monarch, but used canon law, and was lead by a senior cleric, typically an archbishop or cardinal. If it helps, though, the Roman Inquisition, an organ of the Church, also liked to burn the odd apostate.
    - olddustytrail 4y ago
      What Canon law are you referring to? What exactly was led by a senior cleric? Frankly, it sounds as though you are randomly spouting phrases in an attempt to sound educated.

... I mean, what did you think the Spanish Inquisition was up to? Being particularly careless with matches? For instance, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-fé https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-fé (This wasn't unique to Spain, but Spain was certainly an epicenter, due to a large Jewish population forcibly converted during and after the Reconquista)

anon291 4y ago
I'm not going to excuse the church, but this was actually the civil punishment. The church just declared you an apostate or not, and civil authorities would punish you (BTW, most European countries still have similar laws with just lesser punishments and no church involvement... IIRC, blasphemy is still a prosecutable crime in Germany)
- skissane 4y ago
  What about people executed for heresy in the Papal States? There are many examples, but the most famous would be Giordano Bruno, burnt at the stake for heresy in Rome in 1600. The whole "it was the civil authorities not the Church" line doesn't really work there, since the Pope was ultimately in charge of both, even if the two were still nominally distinct. Even in the case of the Spainish Inquisition, where the Church-va-State distinction was somewhat more real – you have to ask whether the Church encouraged or discouraged the civil authorities from imposing capital punishment on those it convicted of heresy. I think you will find that the answer was very much "encourage", not "discourage" or neutral. "We didn't execute anybody, we just encouraged the government to execute them" is a rather laughable defence.
  - olddustytrail 4y ago
    If you can describe exactly what Bruno's heresy was and the effect it had, I'm happy to continue this conversation. If you can't, then it's just a waste of my time.
  - anon291 4y ago
    > – you have to ask whether the Church encouraged or discouraged the civil authorities from imposing capital punishment on those it convicted of heresy That's literally why I started off my comment with "I'm not going to excuse the church". You're absolutely right that there ought to have been a reckoning with the consequences.
olddustytrail 4y ago
The Spanish Inquisition was civil, not church. The link you provided states that explicitly. I repeat: Do you actually have any evidence for what you're saying?
- rsynnott 4y ago
  I mean, it was under the control of the monarch, but used canon law, and was lead by a senior cleric, typically an archbishop or cardinal. If it helps, though, the Roman Inquisition, an organ of the Church, also liked to burn the odd apostate.
  - olddustytrail 4y ago
    What Canon law are you referring to? What exactly was led by a senior cleric? Frankly, it sounds as though you are randomly spouting phrases in an attempt to sound educated.