9 ms·

This. You can't produce all of the worlds electricity in deserts and ship it around the world

ch4s3 4y ago
As a thought experiment I once imagined electric trains running between populated areas and desert solar farms. Maybe they carry "green hydrogen" or perhaps just big batteries. After a few minutes and a good chuckle I moved on.
- tragictrash 4y ago
  We have these 'electricity trains' already in a sense, but they are tractor trailers containing fuel oil. It's not as crazy as it sounds, but there are better solutions available.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    Usually, the issue with this kind of thing is that * this is a form of energy transmission that requires labor for the actual transport (the train crew) and so is automatically much more expensive and difficult than a dumb pipeline or power line which requires much less staffing * it's hard to create energy storage that isn't also a bomb in the wrong conditions, and train tracks pass through populated areas. Fuel already has restrictions on where it can be routed because there have been fuel train explosions.
craftkiller 4y ago
Why not? Australia is going to be exporting its solar power to Indonesia through a 2,800 mile direct current cable[1]. Thats approximately the width of the mainland united states. It won't be as efficient as generating it nearby but if its already commercially viable then it will only become more viable as solar becomes cheaper and more abundant. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia-Asia_Power_Link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia-Asia_Power_Link.
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  COuntries will be looking to become energy independent, especially with the russia fiasco Europe is facing. At the very least they will try to make sure a majority of their energy isn't imported from one country.
newsclues 4y ago
You also can’t produce all the clean energy via ocean based solar and ship it to where humans live.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  Offshore cables exist, and if you want to go the route of producing it into some intermediate form, a good majority of heavily populated areas are also ports.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Yet, you really can.
henryfjordan 4y ago
There's a proposal to use solar power in the desert to create pure Hydrogen gas via electrolysis, then fill autonomous blimps with that hydrogen to ship it to where energy is needed. You wouldn't want to fly over populated areas, but otherwise seems like a feasible idea to transport that solar power.
- nine_k 4y ago
  For that you'd need to use kilotons of water a day, which is usually hard in a desert. It could work on an arid sea shore though, say, in North or South Africa. But there seem to be closer-by large consumers, and maybe producing freshwater would bring more value than producing hydrogen.
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    > you'd need to use kilotons of water a day, which is usually hard in a desert North Africa, India, Australia and other have deserts right next to the ocean.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      There is absolutely no need for deserts to site solar farms, so the premise is nonsense. Solar farms are wholly compatible with agriculture. Look up "agrivoltaics".
      - winReInstall 4y ago
        There are currently experiments in europe, to combine the too. Turns out alot of plants just need 2 hrs of sun and shut down after too save on evoparation. Meaning 35 % of the sunlight needed and the rest as solar seems feasable.
goodpoint 4y ago
You very much CAN send electricity long distance and there's been serious discussion of providing electricity for Europe from north Africa. Producing hydrogen near the ocean and shipping it on a tanker is another realistic alternative.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  There were huge projects started to site solar farms in Africa, serving Europe. They collapsed. The reason they collapsed was that there turns out to be less than zero value in siting solar farms in the desert, and solar panels have got so cheap that you do better posting more of them nearby instead of paying for the long cable. The reason solar farms in the desert have negative value, vs. siting nearby, is that panels in the desert get hotter, so run less efficiently than over water or plant life, and last many fewer years. Furthermore, panels in farmland improve yield and water demand.
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    The question was if it's technically possible - and it is. Projects like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec were based on the cost estimates at the time. Now solar panels are much cheaper and it's a good thing.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      The cheaper the panels are, the closer by you want them.
googlryas 4y ago
Don't tell me what I can't do! HVDC transmission losses are only around 3.5% per 1000km. So you could get around 80% of the energy you produce in Mali to Norway. Doesn't seem so bad.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Furthermore, there is strictly negative benefit to siting solar farms in deserts. It makes them run hot, thus less efficiently, and shortens their lifetime. Siting solar on farmland increases farm yield and cuts water loss.

As a thought experiment I once imagined electric trains running between populated areas and desert solar farms. Maybe they carry "green hydrogen" or perhaps just big batteries. After a few minutes and a good chuckle I moved on.

tragictrash 4y ago
We have these 'electricity trains' already in a sense, but they are tractor trailers containing fuel oil. It's not as crazy as it sounds, but there are better solutions available.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  Usually, the issue with this kind of thing is that * this is a form of energy transmission that requires labor for the actual transport (the train crew) and so is automatically much more expensive and difficult than a dumb pipeline or power line which requires much less staffing * it's hard to create energy storage that isn't also a bomb in the wrong conditions, and train tracks pass through populated areas. Fuel already has restrictions on where it can be routed because there have been fuel train explosions.

craftkiller 4y ago

Why not? Australia is going to be exporting its solar power to Indonesia through a 2,800 mile direct current cable[1]. Thats approximately the width of the mainland united states. It won't be as efficient as generating it nearby but if its already commercially viable then it will only become more viable as solar becomes cheaper and more abundant. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia-Asia_Power_Link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia-Asia_Power_Link.

colinmhayes 4y ago
COuntries will be looking to become energy independent, especially with the russia fiasco Europe is facing. At the very least they will try to make sure a majority of their energy isn't imported from one country.

newsclues 4y ago

You also can’t produce all the clean energy via ocean based solar and ship it to where humans live.

bobthepanda 4y ago
Offshore cables exist, and if you want to go the route of producing it into some intermediate form, a good majority of heavily populated areas are also ports.
ncmncm 4y ago
Yet, you really can.

henryfjordan 4y ago

There's a proposal to use solar power in the desert to create pure Hydrogen gas via electrolysis, then fill autonomous blimps with that hydrogen to ship it to where energy is needed. You wouldn't want to fly over populated areas, but otherwise seems like a feasible idea to transport that solar power.

nine_k 4y ago
For that you'd need to use kilotons of water a day, which is usually hard in a desert. It could work on an arid sea shore though, say, in North or South Africa. But there seem to be closer-by large consumers, and maybe producing freshwater would bring more value than producing hydrogen.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  > you'd need to use kilotons of water a day, which is usually hard in a desert North Africa, India, Australia and other have deserts right next to the ocean.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    There is absolutely no need for deserts to site solar farms, so the premise is nonsense. Solar farms are wholly compatible with agriculture. Look up "agrivoltaics".
    - winReInstall 4y ago
      There are currently experiments in europe, to combine the too. Turns out alot of plants just need 2 hrs of sun and shut down after too save on evoparation. Meaning 35 % of the sunlight needed and the rest as solar seems feasable.

goodpoint 4y ago

You very much CAN send electricity long distance and there's been serious discussion of providing electricity for Europe from north Africa. Producing hydrogen near the ocean and shipping it on a tanker is another realistic alternative.

ncmncm 4y ago
There were huge projects started to site solar farms in Africa, serving Europe. They collapsed. The reason they collapsed was that there turns out to be less than zero value in siting solar farms in the desert, and solar panels have got so cheap that you do better posting more of them nearby instead of paying for the long cable. The reason solar farms in the desert have negative value, vs. siting nearby, is that panels in the desert get hotter, so run less efficiently than over water or plant life, and last many fewer years. Furthermore, panels in farmland improve yield and water demand.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  The question was if it's technically possible - and it is. Projects like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec were based on the cost estimates at the time. Now solar panels are much cheaper and it's a good thing.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    The cheaper the panels are, the closer by you want them.

googlryas 4y ago

Don't tell me what I can't do! HVDC transmission losses are only around 3.5% per 1000km. So you could get around 80% of the energy you produce in Mali to Norway. Doesn't seem so bad.

ncmncm 4y ago
Furthermore, there is strictly negative benefit to siting solar farms in deserts. It makes them run hot, thus less efficiently, and shortens their lifetime. Siting solar on farmland increases farm yield and cuts water loss.