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It's zero sum. You're hurting your fellow citizens by diluting their labor. You may think this is a righteous position, but from the perspective of a nationalis

by PKop 4y ago

It's zero sum. You're hurting your fellow citizens by diluting their labor. You may think this is a righteous position, but from the perspective of a nationalist, you are strictly harming not helping your fellow countrymen, and therefore you set yourself up as their enemy. >only cares about And the prosperity of their own country. It is "selfish" yes. But a selfishness that extends out to their kin and their neighbors. They recognize the world is an arena of competition for scarce resources and power, and so they fight for their community and country to be as prosperous and powerful as possible, because they know foreign nations will do the same for their own people. See: "Ideological differences in the expanse of the moral circle" [0], specifically Figure 5: Heatmaps indicating highest moral allocation by ideology [1] for a nice visualization of the difference between the moral allocation of right vs left. [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12227-0?fbclid=IwAR1SsgxyxudFNXSC_2qFquICYUM4xsWHEIVtzAfdCdss0g5QR8b0u8AxwhI https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12227-0?fbclid=Iw... [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12227-0/figures/5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12227-0/figures/5

8note 4y ago
I don't think it is zero sum? Increasing the amount of people means more resource usage, but also more chances for innovation and economies of scale. Much power in Trump's trade war came from the size of the consumer base
jodrellblank 4y ago
> "You're hurting your fellow citizens by diluting their labor" No more so than having children and growing the population that way, which is a concept the right generally supports ("family values", "pro life"). > "you are strictly harming not helping your fellow countrymen" It's not like the right do things to help fellow countrymen; taking away rights ("pro choice"), scorning single mothers instead of helping them and their children, demonizing social welfare users as 'welfare queens', opposing 'free' healthcare, oppising livable wages, remove unions and removing the bargaining power workers would need to have good wages otherwise, worsening education and making it less accessible and more expensive. The society their actions move towards is one where wealthy people live off the back of a working class who grind for money and die when they aren't productive anymore, along with a militarised police force acting to keeps the poors in line, and a 'justice' system which lets the rich away without punishment. And you can see it in action when Texas power fails and Ted Cruz takes his family on holiday, or the needlessly cruel treatment the UK Conservative Party's Department for Work and Pensions does to disabled people. Nationalism isn't "help fellow citizens", it's "given a region drawn on a map, inside good, outside bad".
- ryan93 4y ago
  How many pro immigration leftists live their life as if its no more valuable than anyone else's? .001% maybe.If you wanted to help the global poor sending them American dollars would go a lot further in their own country
  - jodrellblank 4y ago
    Being pro immigration doesn't mean you think all the global poor should move 'here' immediately (wherever 'here' is). leftists are more that people who have moved here should be treated as human, not subhuman. It's normal to think your life is more important than other people's. It's weird to live in Texas and think people born 50 miles away in Mexico are inferior but people born 1,000 miles away in New York are the same, and people born 1,100 miles away in Canada are inferior. In some sense thinking "I just happened to be born here and this doesn't give me any special status over people who weren't" is one way of living life as if it's no more valuable than anyone elses. > "their own country" Why nationalism though? Why should someone born in a "shithole country" be obliged to try and make it better instead of moving away? What should compel them to care about the lines on a map? What should compel me in the UK to feel more connected to someone in Norther Ireland (part of the UK) than someone in the Republic of Ireland a few miles away (part of Europe)? Or less connected to people in Spain, but more connected to people in Gibraltar (part of the UK, on the far side of Spain), or people in the Falkland Islands (part of the UK, South Argentina)?
    - ryan93 4y ago
      I dont know who you think you are responding to. The person i was responding too does think anyone and everyone should have carte blanche to immigrate to america. Also please post the part of my comment where i said hispanics should be treated as less than. Third wold Immigrants in america get treated much better than their own country. As they should! Thats why they come here!
      - jodrellblank 4y ago
        The person you were responding to was me. And thinking anyone should be able to immigrate (which I kinda do think) is not the same as thinking everyone ought to immigrate (which I don't think). > "please post the part of my comment where i said hispanics should be treated as less than" This bit: "If you wanted to help the global poor sending them American dollars would go a lot further in their own country". You think they are treated better in America than in their home country. You don't think they deserve to go to America and should stay in their home country. How is that not treating them as lesser people, less deserving? Take a 20 year old America and a 20 year old from imaginary Elbonia. Everyone agrees America is greater than Elbonia. OK, but at age 20 the American contributed literally nothing to the greatness of America, and the Elbonian contributed literally nothing to the corruption and mess of Elbonia. The Elbonian might even live closer to the American border than to the capital of Elbonia. But because lines on a map, the American thinks they deserve the greatness of America and the Elbonian doesn't. The American thinks the Elbonian should take responsibility for fixing Elbonia and the American shouldn't. See the world as one blob of land with only ocean boundaries and people as equals with equal rights, and none of this makes sense.
scollet 4y ago
Did your nurse help you write that comment?

by PKop 4y ago

8note 4y ago

I don't think it is zero sum? Increasing the amount of people means more resource usage, but also more chances for innovation and economies of scale. Much power in Trump's trade war came from the size of the consumer base

jodrellblank 4y ago

> "You're hurting your fellow citizens by diluting their labor" No more so than having children and growing the population that way, which is a concept the right generally supports ("family values", "pro life"). > "you are strictly harming not helping your fellow countrymen" It's not like the right do things to help fellow countrymen; taking away rights ("pro choice"), scorning single mothers instead of helping them and their children, demonizing social welfare users as 'welfare queens', opposing 'free' healthcare, oppising livable wages, remove unions and removing the bargaining power workers would need to have good wages otherwise, worsening education and making it less accessible and more expensive. The society their actions move towards is one where wealthy people live off the back of a working class who grind for money and die when they aren't productive anymore, along with a militarised police force acting to keeps the poors in line, and a 'justice' system which lets the rich away without punishment. And you can see it in action when Texas power fails and Ted Cruz takes his family on holiday, or the needlessly cruel treatment the UK Conservative Party's Department for Work and Pensions does to disabled people. Nationalism isn't "help fellow citizens", it's "given a region drawn on a map, inside good, outside bad".

ryan93 4y ago
How many pro immigration leftists live their life as if its no more valuable than anyone else's? .001% maybe.If you wanted to help the global poor sending them American dollars would go a lot further in their own country
- jodrellblank 4y ago
  Being pro immigration doesn't mean you think all the global poor should move 'here' immediately (wherever 'here' is). leftists are more that people who have moved here should be treated as human, not subhuman. It's normal to think your life is more important than other people's. It's weird to live in Texas and think people born 50 miles away in Mexico are inferior but people born 1,000 miles away in New York are the same, and people born 1,100 miles away in Canada are inferior. In some sense thinking "I just happened to be born here and this doesn't give me any special status over people who weren't" is one way of living life as if it's no more valuable than anyone elses. > "their own country" Why nationalism though? Why should someone born in a "shithole country" be obliged to try and make it better instead of moving away? What should compel them to care about the lines on a map? What should compel me in the UK to feel more connected to someone in Norther Ireland (part of the UK) than someone in the Republic of Ireland a few miles away (part of Europe)? Or less connected to people in Spain, but more connected to people in Gibraltar (part of the UK, on the far side of Spain), or people in the Falkland Islands (part of the UK, South Argentina)?
  - ryan93 4y ago
    I dont know who you think you are responding to. The person i was responding too does think anyone and everyone should have carte blanche to immigrate to america. Also please post the part of my comment where i said hispanics should be treated as less than. Third wold Immigrants in america get treated much better than their own country. As they should! Thats why they come here!
    - jodrellblank 4y ago
      The person you were responding to was me. And thinking anyone should be able to immigrate (which I kinda do think) is not the same as thinking everyone ought to immigrate (which I don't think). > "please post the part of my comment where i said hispanics should be treated as less than" This bit: "If you wanted to help the global poor sending them American dollars would go a lot further in their own country". You think they are treated better in America than in their home country. You don't think they deserve to go to America and should stay in their home country. How is that not treating them as lesser people, less deserving? Take a 20 year old America and a 20 year old from imaginary Elbonia. Everyone agrees America is greater than Elbonia. OK, but at age 20 the American contributed literally nothing to the greatness of America, and the Elbonian contributed literally nothing to the corruption and mess of Elbonia. The Elbonian might even live closer to the American border than to the capital of Elbonia. But because lines on a map, the American thinks they deserve the greatness of America and the Elbonian doesn't. The American thinks the Elbonian should take responsibility for fixing Elbonia and the American shouldn't. See the world as one blob of land with only ocean boundaries and people as equals with equal rights, and none of this makes sense.

scollet 4y ago

Did your nurse help you write that comment?