5 ms·

I feel like there's a part of the word "absolutist" that you don't get.

pcmoney 4y ago
So free speech absolutist means you tolerate incoherent yelling in all places at all times? While you're trying to focus and get work done? While you're trying to sleep? At your wedding? At a funeral?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kevingadd 4y ago
  ab·so·lute adjective: absolute 1. not qualified or diminished in any way; total. free adjective: free; comparative adjective: freer; superlative adjective: freest 1. not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes. hmm I wonder what 'free speech absolutist' means. maybe that one's freedom to speak is not qualified or diminished in any way? their freedom to speak is total?
  - googlryas 4y ago
    Isn't this just "Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences"? No one is restricting their ability to speak, they are just restricting their ability to work at SpaceX. What's the alternative? Does a free speech absolutist need to never make judgements on what he hears from someone's free speech? If I hear a person say he wants to murder me and my family, do I still need to invite him over for Thanksgiving dinner? Aren't I exerting some form of control of over him if I say you can't come into my home? I think your view of the term "free speech absolutist" may make sense when analyzing the individual word meanings, but doesn't make sense as a phrase, and doesn't align with how self described free speech absolutists view themselves.
    - jakelazaroff 4y ago
      The point is that there’s no fundamental difference between “you are free to say what you want, but you might get fired from SpaceX” and “you are free to say what you want, but you might get banned from Twitter”. But people — including Elon! — act as if the former is normal and rational, while the latter is some sort of affront to a free society.
      - googlryas 4y ago
        Most people would disagree that there's no fundamental difference between an employee-employer relationship and a user-service provider relationship.
        jakelazaroff 4y ago
        Abstractly, in the sense that "freedom from speech is not freedom from consequences", I don't think they're fundamentally different. If you're a free speech absolutist, then the nature of the relationship shouldn't matter. They're both just private organizations making choices about how they voluntarily associate with others. Most people aren't free speech absolutists, though, and I agree that they'd think there's a fundamental difference between employer-employee relationships and user-provider relationships as a whole. But it should be significantly harder for an employer to fire an employee than for a service provider to ban a user.
      - samhyde69 4y ago
    - joenathanone 4y ago
      Everyone already has what you are describing by default, anyone anywhere can say anything at all, the issue is whatever consequences come from that, be it jail time like in Russia for speaking about the war, or losing your job at SpaceX. Being a free speech absolutist is meaningless if you are going to fire people the moment they say something you don't like.
- VikingCoder 4y ago
  I'd love to hear Mr. Musk define what he means by the term. I'm not the one claiming to be a free speech absolutist, he is. I for instance am not a free speech absolutist. I think it's okay to deplatform people who are spreading misinformation about a global pandemic, or an election. But Mr. Musk apparently thinks that's bad. So, we get to find out where he draws the line that he claims he doesn't have.
  - arghnoname 4y ago
    In the context of the current debate, I think a good faith reading of someone claiming to be a 'free speech absolutist' would be to interpret the internet as a public forum that is protected by speech guarantees enshrined by the first amendment despite the fact that they're hosted by private corporations. It probably doesn't mean child porn is okay. It probably doesn't mean direct exhortations of violence against specific individuals is okay. It's fair to say he can be more explicit in his definition, but it's easier for us to have a conversation if we try to interpret one another charitably. The real test for whether or not Musk is being a hypocrite is whether or not he censors critics of him on Twitter. That is an apples to apples comparison. I think it's fair to say that continuing to pay people who criticize you is a different matter.
    - VikingCoder 4y ago
      I think it's also fair to say that "absolutist" is not a correct term for him to use to describe himself.
- Ombudsman 4y ago
  Nice straw man you've got there. These employees weren't "incoherently yelling in all places at all times". They distributed a memo which criticized Elon. This should be very acceptable behaviour to a free speech absolutist like Musk.
  - meatsauce 4y ago
    Unsolicited blasting of the email, letter, and surveys to thousands of employees is the digital equivalent to "incoherently yelling in all places at all times." I would expect nothing less from the woke-cancer employees. The productive members of the team must be relieved that the woke weight was shed.
    - widjit 4y ago
      using the word "woke" carries exactly zero weight with anyone other than people with the most basic primate-level understanding of social behavior or more simply: by using that word you sound dumb then again, maybe that's how you want to identify. who am I to say
      - meatsauce 4y ago
        Isn't it funny that the woke cancer employees want to shed the woke label, despite their claim of being "woke."
        widjit 4y ago
        doubling down I see
  - oittaa 4y ago
    > Shotwell's email to staff also said, "Blanketing thousands of people across the company with repeated unsolicited emails and asking them to sign letters and fill out unsponsored surveys during the work day is not acceptable."
- Kina 4y ago
  This is observably what Musk seems to think free speech means when _he_ has the floor, but nobody else. - Publicly attacking a man as a pedophile because he dismissed his submarine as an unworkable solution during the Thai cave rescue efforts. - Cutting off analysts during a Tesla call, calling them boring and then soliciting fluff questions from the Internet. Musk, like most free speech absolutists, is a hack. It's an argument used to allow _them_ to say words without repercussions.
  - meatsauce 4y ago
    He's such a hack! So terrible is Musk at leadership, he is only the richest man on the planet. Worst successful guy ever!
    - qsdf38100 4y ago
      If being the richest man on the planet proves anything, it’s probably not honesty and integrity. If anything, being ruthless and deceptive are better traits to achieve this. Of course there are some exceptions. But I don’t think Musk is one.
    - Kina 4y ago
      Being the richest man on earth does not absolve you of being called out for being a hypocritical douche? I never understand this defense. There are lessons one can take from successful people, but they not demigods. They're just people and people are often good and bad at the same time. Why do people defend them? If I make a controversial statement in a public forum, I should expect some uncomfortable criticism and they aren't entitled to any better treatment just because they can throw a wad of cash around.
- root_axis 4y ago
  It's telling that Musk's defenders have to stand up a hyperbolic caricature of the employee letter ("incoherent yelling at a wedding" in this case), rather than engage with what actually happened. This shows me that it's clear, even to his defenders, that firing employees for a letter criticizing Elon is an obvious contradiction to the spirit of his free speech moralizing, despite him being within his rights to fire them.
- widjit 4y ago
  if you don't mean that, then why use the word "absolute"? if there are exceptions then it isn't absolute
randyrand 4y ago
Its also pretty ambiguous what that means.

So free speech absolutist means you tolerate incoherent yelling in all places at all times? While you're trying to focus and get work done? While you're trying to sleep? At your wedding? At a funeral?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kevingadd 4y ago
ab·so·lute adjective: absolute 1. not qualified or diminished in any way; total. free adjective: free; comparative adjective: freer; superlative adjective: freest 1. not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes. hmm I wonder what 'free speech absolutist' means. maybe that one's freedom to speak is not qualified or diminished in any way? their freedom to speak is total?
- googlryas 4y ago
  Isn't this just "Freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences"? No one is restricting their ability to speak, they are just restricting their ability to work at SpaceX. What's the alternative? Does a free speech absolutist need to never make judgements on what he hears from someone's free speech? If I hear a person say he wants to murder me and my family, do I still need to invite him over for Thanksgiving dinner? Aren't I exerting some form of control of over him if I say you can't come into my home? I think your view of the term "free speech absolutist" may make sense when analyzing the individual word meanings, but doesn't make sense as a phrase, and doesn't align with how self described free speech absolutists view themselves.
  - jakelazaroff 4y ago
    The point is that there’s no fundamental difference between “you are free to say what you want, but you might get fired from SpaceX” and “you are free to say what you want, but you might get banned from Twitter”. But people — including Elon! — act as if the former is normal and rational, while the latter is some sort of affront to a free society.
    - googlryas 4y ago
      Most people would disagree that there's no fundamental difference between an employee-employer relationship and a user-service provider relationship.
      - jakelazaroff 4y ago
        Abstractly, in the sense that "freedom from speech is not freedom from consequences", I don't think they're fundamentally different. If you're a free speech absolutist, then the nature of the relationship shouldn't matter. They're both just private organizations making choices about how they voluntarily associate with others. Most people aren't free speech absolutists, though, and I agree that they'd think there's a fundamental difference between employer-employee relationships and user-provider relationships as a whole. But it should be significantly harder for an employer to fire an employee than for a service provider to ban a user.
    - samhyde69 4y ago
  - joenathanone 4y ago
    Everyone already has what you are describing by default, anyone anywhere can say anything at all, the issue is whatever consequences come from that, be it jail time like in Russia for speaking about the war, or losing your job at SpaceX. Being a free speech absolutist is meaningless if you are going to fire people the moment they say something you don't like.
VikingCoder 4y ago
I'd love to hear Mr. Musk define what he means by the term. I'm not the one claiming to be a free speech absolutist, he is. I for instance am not a free speech absolutist. I think it's okay to deplatform people who are spreading misinformation about a global pandemic, or an election. But Mr. Musk apparently thinks that's bad. So, we get to find out where he draws the line that he claims he doesn't have.
- arghnoname 4y ago
  In the context of the current debate, I think a good faith reading of someone claiming to be a 'free speech absolutist' would be to interpret the internet as a public forum that is protected by speech guarantees enshrined by the first amendment despite the fact that they're hosted by private corporations. It probably doesn't mean child porn is okay. It probably doesn't mean direct exhortations of violence against specific individuals is okay. It's fair to say he can be more explicit in his definition, but it's easier for us to have a conversation if we try to interpret one another charitably. The real test for whether or not Musk is being a hypocrite is whether or not he censors critics of him on Twitter. That is an apples to apples comparison. I think it's fair to say that continuing to pay people who criticize you is a different matter.
  - VikingCoder 4y ago
    I think it's also fair to say that "absolutist" is not a correct term for him to use to describe himself.
Ombudsman 4y ago
Nice straw man you've got there. These employees weren't "incoherently yelling in all places at all times". They distributed a memo which criticized Elon. This should be very acceptable behaviour to a free speech absolutist like Musk.
- meatsauce 4y ago
  Unsolicited blasting of the email, letter, and surveys to thousands of employees is the digital equivalent to "incoherently yelling in all places at all times." I would expect nothing less from the woke-cancer employees. The productive members of the team must be relieved that the woke weight was shed.
  - widjit 4y ago
    using the word "woke" carries exactly zero weight with anyone other than people with the most basic primate-level understanding of social behavior or more simply: by using that word you sound dumb then again, maybe that's how you want to identify. who am I to say
    - meatsauce 4y ago
      Isn't it funny that the woke cancer employees want to shed the woke label, despite their claim of being "woke."
      - widjit 4y ago
        doubling down I see
- oittaa 4y ago
  > Shotwell's email to staff also said, "Blanketing thousands of people across the company with repeated unsolicited emails and asking them to sign letters and fill out unsponsored surveys during the work day is not acceptable."
Kina 4y ago
This is observably what Musk seems to think free speech means when _he_ has the floor, but nobody else. - Publicly attacking a man as a pedophile because he dismissed his submarine as an unworkable solution during the Thai cave rescue efforts. - Cutting off analysts during a Tesla call, calling them boring and then soliciting fluff questions from the Internet. Musk, like most free speech absolutists, is a hack. It's an argument used to allow _them_ to say words without repercussions.
- meatsauce 4y ago
  He's such a hack! So terrible is Musk at leadership, he is only the richest man on the planet. Worst successful guy ever!
  - qsdf38100 4y ago
    If being the richest man on the planet proves anything, it’s probably not honesty and integrity. If anything, being ruthless and deceptive are better traits to achieve this. Of course there are some exceptions. But I don’t think Musk is one.
  - Kina 4y ago
    Being the richest man on earth does not absolve you of being called out for being a hypocritical douche? I never understand this defense. There are lessons one can take from successful people, but they not demigods. They're just people and people are often good and bad at the same time. Why do people defend them? If I make a controversial statement in a public forum, I should expect some uncomfortable criticism and they aren't entitled to any better treatment just because they can throw a wad of cash around.
root_axis 4y ago
It's telling that Musk's defenders have to stand up a hyperbolic caricature of the employee letter ("incoherent yelling at a wedding" in this case), rather than engage with what actually happened. This shows me that it's clear, even to his defenders, that firing employees for a letter criticizing Elon is an obvious contradiction to the spirit of his free speech moralizing, despite him being within his rights to fire them.
widjit 4y ago
if you don't mean that, then why use the word "absolute"? if there are exceptions then it isn't absolute

randyrand 4y ago

Its also pretty ambiguous what that means.