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We’d be better off suing ourselves. It’s we consumers who ultimately burn the oil for our homes, hospitals, schools, cars, and general electrical needs. Instea

We’d be better off suing ourselves. It’s we consumers who ultimately burn the oil for our homes, hospitals, schools, cars, and general electrical needs. Instead of engaging in inflammatory rhetoric, let’s try something useful like a carbon tax that prices in the environmental impacts of fossil fuel consumption.

aquafox 4y ago
I don't think a carbon tax will ever work in reality. Big companies are known for their tax evasions. We shouldn't bet the future of the planet on something that is known to not work.
- legitster 4y ago
  Which is why carbon would be taxed at the point of consumption. Your method to avoid the tax would be picking alternatives.
sbarre 4y ago
This "blame the consumer" bullshit has been happening since cigarettes... And it is bullshit. These large corporations, controlled by a relatively small number of _people_ have a disproportionate and coordinated impact on the environment that outstrips anything the average person can do. They need to be held accountable, like we have done to other polluters and entities that have threatened public safety and security in our communities and society. I don't know if this particular effort is the right approach, but I sure am sick of naive people pointing the finger at the average person saying they need to be personally responsible for fixing problems created by large corporations. Edit: not saying the average person should do nothing, but it's literally the least impactful thing that we can do. Corporations and sources of pollution need to be made accountable first. Everything else is just noise.
- BenFranklin100 4y ago
  Poor analogy. Unlike cigarettes, we actually do need energy. Given antipathy toward nuclear and scale-up issues with renewables, fossil fuels have been the only scalable option over the last decades.
  - sbarre 4y ago
    I wasn't comparing oil to cigarettes in terms of products, sorry if that's how it came across. I was comparing the practice of large corporations who are actually to blame for societal problems deflecting that blame down to the end user.
- waynesonfire 4y ago
  > This "blame the consumer" bullshit has been happening since cigarettes... And it is bullshit. You see this with recycling plastics as well. YOUR fault for not tossing the yogurt container in the right bin.
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    That one apparently was a scam the whole time.
- carlgreene 4y ago
  What pollution do you want to hold them accountable for exactly? Surely not the pollution created by the end users consumption. Your comment makes it sound like you’re ok with the the oil companies and corporations just ceasing operations
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > This "blame the consumer" bullshit has been happening since cigarettes... And it is bullshit. Except that fuel is not literally addictive; it actually provides for some pretty basic needs for most people. > These large corporations, controlled by a relatively small number of _people_ have a disproportionate and coordinated impact on the environment that outstrips anything the average person can do. > They need to be held accountable, like we have done to other polluters and entities that have threatened public safety and security in our communities and society. You might have point in some areas, but not demand for/use of fossil fuels. That is truly a democratic environmental problem.
  - r_harriso 4y ago
    It’s worse than addictive, it’s requisite for live in many parts of the US. That didn’t happen by accident.
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      > It’s worse than addictive, it’s requisite for live in many parts of the US. That didn’t happen by accident. Yeah, because people prefer and choose to use modern, energy-intensive technology. It's not like the oil companies forced cars or HVAC systems on people who didn't want them. What actually happened was people wanted to drive cars and live in warm homes without spending months chopping wood, and that created a lot of demand for fossil fuels.
- notatoad 4y ago
  the "large corporations" thing is bullshit too. that list that goes around of "these 100 companies are responsible for 99% of emissions" or whatever the percentage is, all the companies on that list are oil companies. but they aren't the ones burning the oil, they're the ones selling it. individuals can't absolve themselves of responsibility by blaming the corporations that they buy their petroleum products from.
  - r_harriso 4y ago
    Consumer demand is not something that just appears. Demand for oil has largely been induced by decades of urban, housing and transportation planning centered around the automobile. E.G I do not want a car; I don’t like driving and maintaining one is expensive, but I don’t have a viable alternative for many trips I need to make. Planning according to policies set in large part by auto and oil lobbyists.
  - r00fus 4y ago
    You fail to understand the years of marketing, r&d, lobbying and outright anticompetitive practices these companies have been unleashing to "sell more product". If we had any meaningful regulation, these companies would be forced to begin paying for their products' impacts on climate.
- legitster 4y ago
  I'm not sure if I agree with you here. I don't know of a single smoker who actually blames the cigarette manufacturer. You could argue prohibition was good because it drove all of those "evil" profiteering alcohol companies out of business, but at the end of the day the consumer demand was still there.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
adrianN 4y ago
> let’s try something useful like a carbon tax The idea of a carbon tax is not new. Guess which lobby groups successfully delay an implementation?
azinman2 4y ago
How much does it cost to replace Earth? The idea, while totally impractical because the vast majority of countries would never do such a thing, cannot undo the damage that is being done.
CaptArmchair 4y ago
> We’d be better off suing ourselves. That's what accountability in politics is all about. > It’s we consumers who ultimately burn the oil for our homes, hospitals, schools, cars, and general electrical needs. This implies a willingness to ignore the entire complex context why humanity as a whole has ended up in this spot in the first place. Consider this thought experiment. Try cutting out as many aspects as you can out of your life that depends on oil or it's derivatives. This includes the use of goods based on fossil-fuel based polymers, plastics or the combustion of oil for the generation of heat, light and movement. The end result of that exercise would be you living a very different lifestyle and society being organized in a very different way. The vast majority would dismiss the idea as "reverting back to Medieval times" while a small niche is totally into homesteading. Of course, there's a middle ground here when it comes to reducing the dependence on fossil fuels. But to be frank, it's a so-called Wicked Problem that comes with far more challenges then first meets the eye. In fact, the more you - or society - wants to try and reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, the more deeply altering changes to your lifestyle you - or society - is going to have to accept. Beyond electrical cars, this implies changes to public infrastructure, how public space is being used, renewed thinking regarding the use of natural resources, agriculture, supply chains, construction of housing, packaging of goods, etc. etc. etc.
legitster 4y ago
Suing oil companies kind of feels like asking for a refund after eating the whole meal. It's not like consumers were begging for expensive and unreliable sources of energy until oil companies intervened and changed their minds.
LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
Boo blame shifting.
pupppet 4y ago
Are you implying these companies have done nothing to deter alternate forms of energy from succeeding?

aquafox 4y ago

I don't think a carbon tax will ever work in reality. Big companies are known for their tax evasions. We shouldn't bet the future of the planet on something that is known to not work.

legitster 4y ago
Which is why carbon would be taxed at the point of consumption. Your method to avoid the tax would be picking alternatives.

sbarre 4y ago

This "blame the consumer" bullshit has been happening since cigarettes... And it is bullshit. These large corporations, controlled by a relatively small number of _people_ have a disproportionate and coordinated impact on the environment that outstrips anything the average person can do. They need to be held accountable, like we have done to other polluters and entities that have threatened public safety and security in our communities and society. I don't know if this particular effort is the right approach, but I sure am sick of naive people pointing the finger at the average person saying they need to be personally responsible for fixing problems created by large corporations. Edit: not saying the average person should do nothing, but it's literally the least impactful thing that we can do. Corporations and sources of pollution need to be made accountable first. Everything else is just noise.

BenFranklin100 4y ago
Poor analogy. Unlike cigarettes, we actually do need energy. Given antipathy toward nuclear and scale-up issues with renewables, fossil fuels have been the only scalable option over the last decades.
- sbarre 4y ago
  I wasn't comparing oil to cigarettes in terms of products, sorry if that's how it came across. I was comparing the practice of large corporations who are actually to blame for societal problems deflecting that blame down to the end user.
waynesonfire 4y ago
> This "blame the consumer" bullshit has been happening since cigarettes... And it is bullshit. You see this with recycling plastics as well. YOUR fault for not tossing the yogurt container in the right bin.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  That one apparently was a scam the whole time.
carlgreene 4y ago
What pollution do you want to hold them accountable for exactly? Surely not the pollution created by the end users consumption. Your comment makes it sound like you’re ok with the the oil companies and corporations just ceasing operations
tablespoon 4y ago
> This "blame the consumer" bullshit has been happening since cigarettes... And it is bullshit. Except that fuel is not literally addictive; it actually provides for some pretty basic needs for most people. > These large corporations, controlled by a relatively small number of _people_ have a disproportionate and coordinated impact on the environment that outstrips anything the average person can do. > They need to be held accountable, like we have done to other polluters and entities that have threatened public safety and security in our communities and society. You might have point in some areas, but not demand for/use of fossil fuels. That is truly a democratic environmental problem.
- r_harriso 4y ago
  It’s worse than addictive, it’s requisite for live in many parts of the US. That didn’t happen by accident.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > It’s worse than addictive, it’s requisite for live in many parts of the US. That didn’t happen by accident. Yeah, because people prefer and choose to use modern, energy-intensive technology. It's not like the oil companies forced cars or HVAC systems on people who didn't want them. What actually happened was people wanted to drive cars and live in warm homes without spending months chopping wood, and that created a lot of demand for fossil fuels.
notatoad 4y ago
the "large corporations" thing is bullshit too. that list that goes around of "these 100 companies are responsible for 99% of emissions" or whatever the percentage is, all the companies on that list are oil companies. but they aren't the ones burning the oil, they're the ones selling it. individuals can't absolve themselves of responsibility by blaming the corporations that they buy their petroleum products from.
- r_harriso 4y ago
  Consumer demand is not something that just appears. Demand for oil has largely been induced by decades of urban, housing and transportation planning centered around the automobile. E.G I do not want a car; I don’t like driving and maintaining one is expensive, but I don’t have a viable alternative for many trips I need to make. Planning according to policies set in large part by auto and oil lobbyists.
- r00fus 4y ago
  You fail to understand the years of marketing, r&d, lobbying and outright anticompetitive practices these companies have been unleashing to "sell more product". If we had any meaningful regulation, these companies would be forced to begin paying for their products' impacts on climate.
legitster 4y ago
I'm not sure if I agree with you here. I don't know of a single smoker who actually blames the cigarette manufacturer. You could argue prohibition was good because it drove all of those "evil" profiteering alcohol companies out of business, but at the end of the day the consumer demand was still there.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

adrianN 4y ago

> let’s try something useful like a carbon tax The idea of a carbon tax is not new. Guess which lobby groups successfully delay an implementation?

azinman2 4y ago

How much does it cost to replace Earth? The idea, while totally impractical because the vast majority of countries would never do such a thing, cannot undo the damage that is being done.

CaptArmchair 4y ago

> We’d be better off suing ourselves. That's what accountability in politics is all about. > It’s we consumers who ultimately burn the oil for our homes, hospitals, schools, cars, and general electrical needs. This implies a willingness to ignore the entire complex context why humanity as a whole has ended up in this spot in the first place. Consider this thought experiment. Try cutting out as many aspects as you can out of your life that depends on oil or it's derivatives. This includes the use of goods based on fossil-fuel based polymers, plastics or the combustion of oil for the generation of heat, light and movement. The end result of that exercise would be you living a very different lifestyle and society being organized in a very different way. The vast majority would dismiss the idea as "reverting back to Medieval times" while a small niche is totally into homesteading. Of course, there's a middle ground here when it comes to reducing the dependence on fossil fuels. But to be frank, it's a so-called Wicked Problem that comes with far more challenges then first meets the eye. In fact, the more you - or society - wants to try and reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, the more deeply altering changes to your lifestyle you - or society - is going to have to accept. Beyond electrical cars, this implies changes to public infrastructure, how public space is being used, renewed thinking regarding the use of natural resources, agriculture, supply chains, construction of housing, packaging of goods, etc. etc. etc.

legitster 4y ago

Suing oil companies kind of feels like asking for a refund after eating the whole meal. It's not like consumers were begging for expensive and unreliable sources of energy until oil companies intervened and changed their minds.

LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago

Boo blame shifting.

pupppet 4y ago

Are you implying these companies have done nothing to deter alternate forms of energy from succeeding?