6 ms·

You don't employ your plumber full time, perennially. Your episodes of petty tyranny probably do not threaten your plumber's livelihood and/or career. Furthermo

You don't employ your plumber full time, perennially. Your episodes of petty tyranny probably do not threaten your plumber's livelihood and/or career. Furthermore if your plumber gives you indications on how to avoid damaging your plumbing, it may not be directly related to "fixing the toilet", but he is nonetheless doing his job.

pcmoney 4y ago
No but if I am paying him $300/hr and what he is doing is not related to fixing the toilet and is in fact causing me more problems or distracting the electrician who is also costing me $300/hr. Getting rid of him is not petty tyranny. Also I am not threatening his career, he is, he is choosing to take a principled stand and should understand the likely consequences and be willing to accept them.
- disintegore 4y ago
  It was a mistake to participate in this absurd analogy to begin with. You can just stretch it until it becomes convenient again. There is simply no comparing the power dynamic between you and an independent contractor to that of an aerospace company and its highly specialized workforce. It's a simple fact that SpaceX chose its CEO's public image over its mission statement and reputation. I hope future prospects realize that there is no stability or long-term personal growth to be found there unless they can keep their heads down and kiss ass.
  - JackFr 4y ago
    > there is no stability or long-term personal growth to be found there unless they [do their jobs].
    - disintegore 4y ago
      Way to tell on yourself there
    - d0mine 4y ago
      CEO who surrenders themselves with yes-men is bad at his job.
  - pcmoney 4y ago
    No they chose to remove unproductive, toxic people who were distracting away from the people actually doing the work.
    - mempko 4y ago
      Keep going, you are almost there.... so close. Read the letter, what is it about?
    - sumeno 4y ago
      No, they kept Elon
  - achenet 4y ago
    In theory, if politics starts making SpaceX ineffective, the free market will provide an opening for a competitor with a more effective culture to eat their lunch.
  - arghnoname 4y ago
    I think the workforce being highly specialized is where this gets tricky. In principle I think firing someone for causing internal strife in someone's judgement as a manager is in accordance to how our economy is structured and is to be expected. We may disagree with the judgement, but it isn't a free speech issue if that person can just go get another job. The 'consequences' to their speech are inconsequential enough that their ability to express themselves is not prohibited even if inconvenient. But if they can't work anymore because they got fired from the one employer of their skill the consequences are quite severe. They have to learn a new field! Ideally I'd say people with this specialized skill set form a guild or union. The same thing that makes them vulnerable makes their employer vulnerable--the workers of that industry are highly concentrated, with high investment in skill development. Absent that, it's a tricky issue and I think it would be fair to say that at least a warning would have been in order before dismissal. I don't know if the people Musk fired are in this category or not. If it were an office manager, for example, seems fine. if it is an engineer on some space ship esoterica, ouch.
- achenet 4y ago
  > No but if I am paying him $300/hr and what he is doing is not related to fixing the toilet and is in fact causing me more problems or distracting the electrician who is also costing me $300/hr. Getting rid of him is not petty tyranny. Perhaps this isn't a good analogy, but if you yelling insults at the the neighbors makes it harder for him to fix the toilet, and he asks you to stop, would you still fire him for it? Because you could argue, although with difficulty, that Musk tweeting stupid things makes it more difficult for SpaceX employees to do their work. In practice, I've found it generally easier and wiser to leave a company with a stupid boss rather than ask the stupid boss to change, but I see why someone could try the latter.
  - arghnoname 4y ago
    It's a funny point. If I were having some argument with the neighbor and the plumber gave me shit about it...to be honest, I'd be super-annoyed and while I wouldn't fire the plumber (it's difficult to get plumbers on site!), I probably wouldn't have him back. Your point is a good one though, to continue the analogy, the plumber shouldn't want to come back. Erratic and volatile bosses are best avoided. I prefer it when they do this stuff loudly and in public so I can know to avoid them.
edgyquant 4y ago
Firing an incomplete and/or lazy person is not tyranny.
- disintegore 4y ago
  There is no indication that the persons who drafted the letter were "incomplete and/or lazy", nor was that the pretext given by SpaceX management.
- larkost 4y ago
  There are no indications at all of incompetence (I assume that is what you meant) or laziness in this at all. All indications are that this is an group of employees who came together to complain internally, the complaint was leaked (no indication that it was them), and they were fired.
  - meatsauce 4y ago
    - disintegore 4y ago
      I'm sure you're the guy everyone likes at work.
      - meatsauce 4y ago
        100% of my company likes me but that's besides the point. Work isn't a popularity contest and you don't need to be liked all the time by everyone. The only people who care about such things are those with devastatingly low self-esteem.
        disintegore 4y ago
        Well, if work isn't a popularity contest, then who gives a damn what you imagine people at SpaceX think of "woke pests"? All it does it make you sound angry.

pcmoney 4y ago

No but if I am paying him $300/hr and what he is doing is not related to fixing the toilet and is in fact causing me more problems or distracting the electrician who is also costing me $300/hr. Getting rid of him is not petty tyranny. Also I am not threatening his career, he is, he is choosing to take a principled stand and should understand the likely consequences and be willing to accept them.

disintegore 4y ago
It was a mistake to participate in this absurd analogy to begin with. You can just stretch it until it becomes convenient again. There is simply no comparing the power dynamic between you and an independent contractor to that of an aerospace company and its highly specialized workforce. It's a simple fact that SpaceX chose its CEO's public image over its mission statement and reputation. I hope future prospects realize that there is no stability or long-term personal growth to be found there unless they can keep their heads down and kiss ass.
- JackFr 4y ago
  > there is no stability or long-term personal growth to be found there unless they [do their jobs].
  - disintegore 4y ago
    Way to tell on yourself there
  - d0mine 4y ago
    CEO who surrenders themselves with yes-men is bad at his job.
- pcmoney 4y ago
  No they chose to remove unproductive, toxic people who were distracting away from the people actually doing the work.
  - mempko 4y ago
    Keep going, you are almost there.... so close. Read the letter, what is it about?
  - sumeno 4y ago
    No, they kept Elon
- achenet 4y ago
  In theory, if politics starts making SpaceX ineffective, the free market will provide an opening for a competitor with a more effective culture to eat their lunch.
- arghnoname 4y ago
  I think the workforce being highly specialized is where this gets tricky. In principle I think firing someone for causing internal strife in someone's judgement as a manager is in accordance to how our economy is structured and is to be expected. We may disagree with the judgement, but it isn't a free speech issue if that person can just go get another job. The 'consequences' to their speech are inconsequential enough that their ability to express themselves is not prohibited even if inconvenient. But if they can't work anymore because they got fired from the one employer of their skill the consequences are quite severe. They have to learn a new field! Ideally I'd say people with this specialized skill set form a guild or union. The same thing that makes them vulnerable makes their employer vulnerable--the workers of that industry are highly concentrated, with high investment in skill development. Absent that, it's a tricky issue and I think it would be fair to say that at least a warning would have been in order before dismissal. I don't know if the people Musk fired are in this category or not. If it were an office manager, for example, seems fine. if it is an engineer on some space ship esoterica, ouch.
achenet 4y ago
> No but if I am paying him $300/hr and what he is doing is not related to fixing the toilet and is in fact causing me more problems or distracting the electrician who is also costing me $300/hr. Getting rid of him is not petty tyranny. Perhaps this isn't a good analogy, but if you yelling insults at the the neighbors makes it harder for him to fix the toilet, and he asks you to stop, would you still fire him for it? Because you could argue, although with difficulty, that Musk tweeting stupid things makes it more difficult for SpaceX employees to do their work. In practice, I've found it generally easier and wiser to leave a company with a stupid boss rather than ask the stupid boss to change, but I see why someone could try the latter.
- arghnoname 4y ago
  It's a funny point. If I were having some argument with the neighbor and the plumber gave me shit about it...to be honest, I'd be super-annoyed and while I wouldn't fire the plumber (it's difficult to get plumbers on site!), I probably wouldn't have him back. Your point is a good one though, to continue the analogy, the plumber shouldn't want to come back. Erratic and volatile bosses are best avoided. I prefer it when they do this stuff loudly and in public so I can know to avoid them.

edgyquant 4y ago

Firing an incomplete and/or lazy person is not tyranny.

disintegore 4y ago
There is no indication that the persons who drafted the letter were "incomplete and/or lazy", nor was that the pretext given by SpaceX management.
larkost 4y ago
There are no indications at all of incompetence (I assume that is what you meant) or laziness in this at all. All indications are that this is an group of employees who came together to complain internally, the complaint was leaked (no indication that it was them), and they were fired.
- meatsauce 4y ago
  - disintegore 4y ago
    I'm sure you're the guy everyone likes at work.
    - meatsauce 4y ago
      100% of my company likes me but that's besides the point. Work isn't a popularity contest and you don't need to be liked all the time by everyone. The only people who care about such things are those with devastatingly low self-esteem.
      - disintegore 4y ago
        Well, if work isn't a popularity contest, then who gives a damn what you imagine people at SpaceX think of "woke pests"? All it does it make you sound angry.