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I don't think renewables are a lost cause. Solar is currently amongst the cheapest way to generate electricity, and the issue is how to store it, or to distrib

I don't think renewables are a lost cause. Solar is currently amongst the cheapest way to generate electricity, and the issue is how to store it, or to distribute it from sunny, or daylight places to less sunny, or night-time places. One thing I find really annoying and incredibly wasteful currently is the way electronics and appliances are so tightly integrated and proprietary. When a single component fails in your washing machine for example, it often means scraping the entire machine, because the entire electronics are integrated onto a single board, the sensors are all unmarked and wired into a harness, the motors are proprietary, even washing machine drum sizes, fridge shelf, door seal, egg-holder sizes, etc, are all proprietary. I understand all this is so the manufacturer can either force obsolescence (and a new purchase), charge big bucks to a captive audience for proprietary spare parts, or just to save pennies in manufacture, which, especially in electronics, seems vital, currently. But the long-term cost, to the consumer, to society, and to the environment, far outweighs the pennies saved. The EU effort to standardize phone chargers is an excellent example of what we should be doing to fight this trend. The day I can 'build' my own washing machine, fridge, cooker, etc from standard parts, the same way I can a PC now (and also repair, upgrade them) is when this is no longer a big problem.

skywal_l 4y ago
Think of the PC as an example. Everything (or almost) is standardize. You can replace you CPU from Intel by another from AMD. The mac being the opposite strategy of tight integration. It seems to be that tight integration lead to a better overall product but the prices are higher and the environmental impact worst indeed.
- 10000truths 4y ago
  > You can replace you CPU from Intel by another from AMD. Not unless you also replace the motherboard. AMD and Intel CPUs have different sockets and incompatible firmware.
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    Yeah, but I won't have to replace my case, RAM, storage devices, GPU, keyboard, mouse, monitor, power supply, any of the internal cables, etc. There was a time when I could have had an AMD GPU with a motherboard using an NVIDIA chipset with an Intel CPU.
eulgro 4y ago
The case against renewables is highlighted on www.realgnd.org, although their point of view is somewhat criticized.
idiotsecant 4y ago
>Solar is currently amongst the cheapest way to generate electricity Yes, this is because : >the issue is how to store it That little missing part part is massively expensive and completely unaddressed by the underlying technology. It's like saying riding using a sailboat is the most gasoline-efficient way to get from place to place, except the issue of how you get over land. If you add together the cost of solar generation (the cheap and easy part) with storage (the expensive and hard part) you get the actual cost of the generation method, which is substantially higher.
- idrios 4y ago
  Storage is definitely the major challenge but it is being addressed by becoming efficient in getting the energy to the wherever that needs it as soon as it's generated. My hometown just invested in doing this, they're building a decentralized power grid where people can generate or consume solar energy. I'm convinced at this point that wind and solar are actually completely ready for mainstream adoption but we're so used to saying "in a few decades" that we don't realize it's ready now.
  - jacknews 4y ago
    I agree, it's almost a no-brainer to install solar on your roof, and storage and long-distance DC distribution are increasingly viable, and your electric car can potentially be used for storage too.
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  Traditionally, the most efficient way to get over land was to do so over water. Rivers and canals were the highways of the pre-industrial world. Even the early-industrial, as digging and locks-management equipment were mechanised. There's still a tremendous tonnage of cargo which moves by river, though most of it is less time-sensitive than that moved by rail, truck, or air. Modern rail is roughly as efficient as inland water transport. Both are reasonably viable for electrification --- barge "mules" could be and are in places electrified locomotives operating on land with tow cables. The impact that the Erie Canal had in opening up the central United States cannot be overstated. It followed on a tradition of canal building dating back well over 2,500 years --- see China's Grand Canal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_(China) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_(China)
sokoloff 4y ago
The motor for my dryer was no more proprietary than the brake pads on my car. It cross-referenced to many different models of dryers, was available from the OEM and some third-party suppliers, and even the OEM part (an exact match right down to the stickers) was $119.47, tax included, shipped to my door from Amazon before the load of laundry inside could get moldy. Would I rather have paid $100 instead of $120? Sure, but I don’t know how much better it could have gone overall.
- jacknews 4y ago
  This has to be a best case, and I'll bet that if something with the UI broke, or the motor inverter controller, you'd be looking at replacing the entire proprietary board of electronics, at probably nearly the cost of a new appliance.

skywal_l 4y ago

Think of the PC as an example. Everything (or almost) is standardize. You can replace you CPU from Intel by another from AMD. The mac being the opposite strategy of tight integration. It seems to be that tight integration lead to a better overall product but the prices are higher and the environmental impact worst indeed.

10000truths 4y ago
> You can replace you CPU from Intel by another from AMD. Not unless you also replace the motherboard. AMD and Intel CPUs have different sockets and incompatible firmware.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  Yeah, but I won't have to replace my case, RAM, storage devices, GPU, keyboard, mouse, monitor, power supply, any of the internal cables, etc. There was a time when I could have had an AMD GPU with a motherboard using an NVIDIA chipset with an Intel CPU.

eulgro 4y ago

The case against renewables is highlighted on www.realgnd.org, although their point of view is somewhat criticized.

idiotsecant 4y ago

>Solar is currently amongst the cheapest way to generate electricity Yes, this is because : >the issue is how to store it That little missing part part is massively expensive and completely unaddressed by the underlying technology. It's like saying riding using a sailboat is the most gasoline-efficient way to get from place to place, except the issue of how you get over land. If you add together the cost of solar generation (the cheap and easy part) with storage (the expensive and hard part) you get the actual cost of the generation method, which is substantially higher.

idrios 4y ago
Storage is definitely the major challenge but it is being addressed by becoming efficient in getting the energy to the wherever that needs it as soon as it's generated. My hometown just invested in doing this, they're building a decentralized power grid where people can generate or consume solar energy. I'm convinced at this point that wind and solar are actually completely ready for mainstream adoption but we're so used to saying "in a few decades" that we don't realize it's ready now.
- jacknews 4y ago
  I agree, it's almost a no-brainer to install solar on your roof, and storage and long-distance DC distribution are increasingly viable, and your electric car can potentially be used for storage too.
dredmorbius 4y ago
Traditionally, the most efficient way to get over land was to do so over water. Rivers and canals were the highways of the pre-industrial world. Even the early-industrial, as digging and locks-management equipment were mechanised. There's still a tremendous tonnage of cargo which moves by river, though most of it is less time-sensitive than that moved by rail, truck, or air. Modern rail is roughly as efficient as inland water transport. Both are reasonably viable for electrification --- barge "mules" could be and are in places electrified locomotives operating on land with tow cables. The impact that the Erie Canal had in opening up the central United States cannot be overstated. It followed on a tradition of canal building dating back well over 2,500 years --- see China's Grand Canal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_(China) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canal_(China)

sokoloff 4y ago

The motor for my dryer was no more proprietary than the brake pads on my car. It cross-referenced to many different models of dryers, was available from the OEM and some third-party suppliers, and even the OEM part (an exact match right down to the stickers) was $119.47, tax included, shipped to my door from Amazon before the load of laundry inside could get moldy. Would I rather have paid $100 instead of $120? Sure, but I don’t know how much better it could have gone overall.

jacknews 4y ago
This has to be a best case, and I'll bet that if something with the UI broke, or the motor inverter controller, you'd be looking at replacing the entire proprietary board of electronics, at probably nearly the cost of a new appliance.