6 ms·

> While IMEI number may sound rather irrelevant for a common user, however, it becomes a grave security concern as it makes it impossible for cops to intercept

> While IMEI number may sound rather irrelevant for a common user, however, it becomes a grave security concern as it makes it impossible for cops to intercept criminals. In the same way that not wearing a tracking collar is a security concern, because it makes it harder for the police to spy on you? We really should invent a new word for "security" that is actually "security against the user".

DeWilde 4y ago
It's called surveillance.
- car_analogy 4y ago
  Funny how rarely they call it that, isn't it?
  - OJFord 4y ago
    Thought-provoking thread! Maybe I'm being too generous, but I think it makes more sense when you think about it 'top-down': 'national security', in the US 'the Dept. of Homeland Security', etc.
    - mindslight 4y ago
      "Security" is a multi-perspective endeavor. When large institutions use the term "security" they are referring to their own security, which is generally at the expense of your own security. And unfortunately most people naively think that "security" is a scalar where more is good, when in reality they themselves are being made less secure by institutions pushing way past the Schelling points. Surveillance state, digital restrictions management, treacherous computing appliances, "two factor authentication", airport searches, totalitarian schools, prohibitions on mobile phones or pocket knives, no outside food or drink, etc. These are all instances of making some central entity's position more secure, while running roughshod over the ability for individuals to make ourselves secure.
      - teddyh 4y ago
        Sometimes people use “respect” to mean “treating someone like a person” and sometimes they use “respect” to mean “treating someone like an authority” and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say “if you won’t respect me I won’t respect you” and they mean “if you won’t treat me like an authority I won’t treat you like a person” and they think they’re being fair but they aren’t, and it’s not okay. — https://flyingpurplepizzaeater.tumblr.com/post/115216522824/sometimes-people-use-respect-to-mean-treating https://flyingpurplepizzaeater.tumblr.com/post/115216522824/...
rollcat 4y ago
If this is a legitimate concern to you, you should consider not carrying a phone. I know it sounds crazy, but I remember the times before everyone and their dog had a mobile phone - we somehow survived. Even if there's nobody out there to get you, it's very refreshing and calming to disconnect.
- car_analogy 4y ago
  That would help me individually, but will do nothing to address my concern about society becoming a panopticon, and the proliferation of laws that make it illegal to attempt to evade surveillance: For example, in the United Kingdom, under the Mobile Telephones (Re-programming) Act, changing the IMEI of a phone, or possessing equipment that can change it, is considered an offence under some circumstances. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Mobile_Equipment_Identity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Mobile_Equipment...
  - rollcat 4y ago
    You also can't just change or hide your car's registration plates - it's also illegal. I 100% agree with your concern, but there's always a line to draw. Sorry for the car analogy, I had to ;)
  - dmitrygr 4y ago
    > possessing equipment that can change it, On most pixel phones, the "equipment" is any computer with a usb cable and a copy of android SDK (adb). Better arrest every owner of said equipment...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dendriti 4y ago
  You know this works for literally EVERY concern about privacy for ANY technology?
- Fatnino 4y ago
  You should carry your phone, GPS on, with you everywhere all the time. The only exception should be when you need to go out and do something that will be frowned on by the powers that be. In those instances you should leave the phone at home playing a long YouTube video. If you are ever questioned about your whereabouts during that time your phone will supply a good (increasingly bordering on perfect) alibi.
refurb 4y ago
The claim they can track criminals seem bogus? I mean in the US IMEI aren’t linked to a person, at least not required. Neither are SIMs. So if one really wanted an anonymous cell phone it’s not hard to do.
- rys 4y ago
  The IMEI is trackable and triangulatable geographically as it moves around the network. So it still helps determined actors to find the phone, and therefore maybe the user.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    The same can be done with just a SIM though. What IMEI gives you is the ability to track the same phone across SIMs.
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    Determined actors? Like Tom Cruise? He seems pretty determined.
  - jsmith45 4y ago
    Yes, but so is the ISMI, from the sim card, which is actually the primary identifier used for most things within the protocol. ISMI determines which phone number gets connected to the phone, who gets billed for phone calls, etc. The main scenarios where IMEI should be interesting to law enforcement are: stolen phone situations, criminals that keep getting getting new burner sims while continuing to use the same phone, or people that keep prank calling emergency services without having a SIM installed. In nearly all other cases, the ISMI is far more useful identifier. And obviously the phones in question all have unique ISMIs or the network would be having, err.... great difficulty with all of those phones having the same phone number, and being able to route calls.
- rootsudo 4y ago
  US IMEI's potentially are. They are recorded upon purchase - from carrier or reseller. Sims same, they are immediately tied to your account and if you are post paid, there you go. Anonymous cell phones also aren't entirely possible anymore because of network effect and the convenience factor. 1. Network effect, who you know, who you call, when they call you - pattern. 2. Internet usage, where do you go? 3. Geolocation - GPS, proximity with other cell phones, and then internal measuring devices. You can disable reporting completely, sure, but triangulation is user carrier side data, and with 5g roll outs and other potential signal repeaters and cell phones, it's still very accurate. 4. Sideline recording of this data is possible, same as a heat map in googlemaps - just looking for repeatable patterns of usage, where you go, etc. It's not only hard, cell phones nowadays are not designed for anonymous usage. And this is before we even get into adtech, app tracking and other layers of interaction.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

DeWilde 4y ago

It's called surveillance.

car_analogy 4y ago
Funny how rarely they call it that, isn't it?
- OJFord 4y ago
  Thought-provoking thread! Maybe I'm being too generous, but I think it makes more sense when you think about it 'top-down': 'national security', in the US 'the Dept. of Homeland Security', etc.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    "Security" is a multi-perspective endeavor. When large institutions use the term "security" they are referring to their own security, which is generally at the expense of your own security. And unfortunately most people naively think that "security" is a scalar where more is good, when in reality they themselves are being made less secure by institutions pushing way past the Schelling points. Surveillance state, digital restrictions management, treacherous computing appliances, "two factor authentication", airport searches, totalitarian schools, prohibitions on mobile phones or pocket knives, no outside food or drink, etc. These are all instances of making some central entity's position more secure, while running roughshod over the ability for individuals to make ourselves secure.
    - teddyh 4y ago
      Sometimes people use “respect” to mean “treating someone like a person” and sometimes they use “respect” to mean “treating someone like an authority” and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say “if you won’t respect me I won’t respect you” and they mean “if you won’t treat me like an authority I won’t treat you like a person” and they think they’re being fair but they aren’t, and it’s not okay. — https://flyingpurplepizzaeater.tumblr.com/post/115216522824/sometimes-people-use-respect-to-mean-treating https://flyingpurplepizzaeater.tumblr.com/post/115216522824/...

rollcat 4y ago

If this is a legitimate concern to you, you should consider not carrying a phone. I know it sounds crazy, but I remember the times before everyone and their dog had a mobile phone - we somehow survived. Even if there's nobody out there to get you, it's very refreshing and calming to disconnect.

car_analogy 4y ago
That would help me individually, but will do nothing to address my concern about society becoming a panopticon, and the proliferation of laws that make it illegal to attempt to evade surveillance: For example, in the United Kingdom, under the Mobile Telephones (Re-programming) Act, changing the IMEI of a phone, or possessing equipment that can change it, is considered an offence under some circumstances. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Mobile_Equipment_Identity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Mobile_Equipment...
- rollcat 4y ago
  You also can't just change or hide your car's registration plates - it's also illegal. I 100% agree with your concern, but there's always a line to draw. Sorry for the car analogy, I had to ;)
- dmitrygr 4y ago
  > possessing equipment that can change it, On most pixel phones, the "equipment" is any computer with a usb cable and a copy of android SDK (adb). Better arrest every owner of said equipment...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dendriti 4y ago
You know this works for literally EVERY concern about privacy for ANY technology?
Fatnino 4y ago
You should carry your phone, GPS on, with you everywhere all the time. The only exception should be when you need to go out and do something that will be frowned on by the powers that be. In those instances you should leave the phone at home playing a long YouTube video. If you are ever questioned about your whereabouts during that time your phone will supply a good (increasingly bordering on perfect) alibi.

refurb 4y ago

The claim they can track criminals seem bogus? I mean in the US IMEI aren’t linked to a person, at least not required. Neither are SIMs. So if one really wanted an anonymous cell phone it’s not hard to do.

rys 4y ago
The IMEI is trackable and triangulatable geographically as it moves around the network. So it still helps determined actors to find the phone, and therefore maybe the user.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  The same can be done with just a SIM though. What IMEI gives you is the ability to track the same phone across SIMs.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  Determined actors? Like Tom Cruise? He seems pretty determined.
- jsmith45 4y ago
  Yes, but so is the ISMI, from the sim card, which is actually the primary identifier used for most things within the protocol. ISMI determines which phone number gets connected to the phone, who gets billed for phone calls, etc. The main scenarios where IMEI should be interesting to law enforcement are: stolen phone situations, criminals that keep getting getting new burner sims while continuing to use the same phone, or people that keep prank calling emergency services without having a SIM installed. In nearly all other cases, the ISMI is far more useful identifier. And obviously the phones in question all have unique ISMIs or the network would be having, err.... great difficulty with all of those phones having the same phone number, and being able to route calls.
rootsudo 4y ago
US IMEI's potentially are. They are recorded upon purchase - from carrier or reseller. Sims same, they are immediately tied to your account and if you are post paid, there you go. Anonymous cell phones also aren't entirely possible anymore because of network effect and the convenience factor. 1. Network effect, who you know, who you call, when they call you - pattern. 2. Internet usage, where do you go? 3. Geolocation - GPS, proximity with other cell phones, and then internal measuring devices. You can disable reporting completely, sure, but triangulation is user carrier side data, and with 5g roll outs and other potential signal repeaters and cell phones, it's still very accurate. 4. Sideline recording of this data is possible, same as a heat map in googlemaps - just looking for repeatable patterns of usage, where you go, etc. It's not only hard, cell phones nowadays are not designed for anonymous usage. And this is before we even get into adtech, app tracking and other layers of interaction.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]