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I've heard that the Catholic Church considers baptism into the church to be for life, and can make it quite difficult for anybody to remove themselves from offi

I've heard that the Catholic Church considers baptism into the church to be for life, and can make it quite difficult for anybody to remove themselves from official registers. I don't know if there are any equivalent registers in Islam that you'd have trouble deregistering from. Obviously, there are plenty of people around who consider themselves ex-Muslims or ex-Catholics, regardless of any such considerations. Likewise, for so-called cults, so I'm not convinced it's really a point of difference.

otikik 4y ago
There’s a procedure (apostasy). That doesn’t mean they make it easy or that all the small village priests are even aware that it exists.
- trasz 4y ago
  According to Church themselves, apostasy does not make one leave the Church.
  - anon291 4y ago
    The tests the courts use is whether you can actually physically leave control of the organization. Having your name written down or having a spiritual belief that some ritual is permanent, etc, doesn't count as not being able to leave. Are you asking the court to make a judgement on theological matters (i.e., the state of your soul)? Surely you can see why they don't care.
    - incompatible 4y ago
      Not being able to physically leave would be kidnapping, surely? That would make them a criminal organization, not just a "cult".
      - anon291 4y ago
        Cults are often criminal. The Catholic church doesn't harrass you for money or really reach out at all if you're on its roster. All it is is a record of your having come there, which is their record to keep. This is like saying elementary schools are cuts because they keep your transcripts on file -- a completely ridiculous assertion.
        trasz 4y ago
        The Catholic Church rapes children in industrial quantities - but we don't consider it criminal because of the good PR it (still) has.
anon291 4y ago
The difference is that Islam proscribes death for apostates very clearly in its laws, whereas catholicism does not. You're on a list, like a birth certificate. In general, you cannot force another person to erase their memory of you, but certainly not killing you would be good. It's rare in the US, but it does happen in other parts of the world (killed for being apostates). Not going to comment on anything else, just pointing out the obvious difference in kind here. Death is orders of magnitude worse than having your name on a list.
- rsynnott 4y ago
  While no country actually executes people for apostasy from Catholicism today, the prescribed punishment under canon law was death by burning.
  - olddustytrail 4y ago
    That doesn't seem right either. Do you actually have any evidence for what you're saying?
    - rsynnott 4y ago
      ... I mean, what did you think the Spanish Inquisition was up to? Being particularly careless with matches? For instance, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-fé https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-fé (This wasn't unique to Spain, but Spain was certainly an epicenter, due to a large Jewish population forcibly converted during and after the Reconquista)
      - anon291 4y ago
        I'm not going to excuse the church, but this was actually the civil punishment. The church just declared you an apostate or not, and civil authorities would punish you (BTW, most European countries still have similar laws with just lesser punishments and no church involvement... IIRC, blasphemy is still a prosecutable crime in Germany)
swat535 4y ago
Where did you hear such a thing? As a Catholic, I regularly attend Church and we have many people (even entire families) who either join after a long period of being away or leave the faith all together. We miss them of course but no one sends them death treats. Additionally, many people move between denominations. Perhaps you are confusing those with real cults such as: Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Seventh-day Adventism ? I can't however speak for how they operate as I haven't studied them or been involved.
- rsynnott 4y ago
  The Catholic Church in a number of European countries stopped processing requests to formally deregister people, due to mass departures after the sexual abuse revelations, which may be what they're referring to. For instance, https://www.notme.ie https://www.notme.ie
  - olddustytrail 4y ago
    Did the Catholic church in Ireland have a register of people who were Catholic? Which other countries have this? I've just never heard of such a thing.
    - rsynnott 4y ago
      Generally record-keeping would be on a parish level, but yes, it's normal for Catholic parishes to keep records on this.
      - olddustytrail 4y ago
        Are you referring to a record of Christenings? Like every church everywhere would keep?

otikik 4y ago

There’s a procedure (apostasy). That doesn’t mean they make it easy or that all the small village priests are even aware that it exists.

trasz 4y ago
According to Church themselves, apostasy does not make one leave the Church.
- anon291 4y ago
  The tests the courts use is whether you can actually physically leave control of the organization. Having your name written down or having a spiritual belief that some ritual is permanent, etc, doesn't count as not being able to leave. Are you asking the court to make a judgement on theological matters (i.e., the state of your soul)? Surely you can see why they don't care.
  - incompatible 4y ago
    Not being able to physically leave would be kidnapping, surely? That would make them a criminal organization, not just a "cult".
    - anon291 4y ago
      Cults are often criminal. The Catholic church doesn't harrass you for money or really reach out at all if you're on its roster. All it is is a record of your having come there, which is their record to keep. This is like saying elementary schools are cuts because they keep your transcripts on file -- a completely ridiculous assertion.
      - trasz 4y ago
        The Catholic Church rapes children in industrial quantities - but we don't consider it criminal because of the good PR it (still) has.

anon291 4y ago

The difference is that Islam proscribes death for apostates very clearly in its laws, whereas catholicism does not. You're on a list, like a birth certificate. In general, you cannot force another person to erase their memory of you, but certainly not killing you would be good. It's rare in the US, but it does happen in other parts of the world (killed for being apostates). Not going to comment on anything else, just pointing out the obvious difference in kind here. Death is orders of magnitude worse than having your name on a list.

rsynnott 4y ago
While no country actually executes people for apostasy from Catholicism today, the prescribed punishment under canon law was death by burning.
- olddustytrail 4y ago
  That doesn't seem right either. Do you actually have any evidence for what you're saying?
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    ... I mean, what did you think the Spanish Inquisition was up to? Being particularly careless with matches? For instance, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-fé https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-fé (This wasn't unique to Spain, but Spain was certainly an epicenter, due to a large Jewish population forcibly converted during and after the Reconquista)
    - anon291 4y ago
      I'm not going to excuse the church, but this was actually the civil punishment. The church just declared you an apostate or not, and civil authorities would punish you (BTW, most European countries still have similar laws with just lesser punishments and no church involvement... IIRC, blasphemy is still a prosecutable crime in Germany)

swat535 4y ago

Where did you hear such a thing? As a Catholic, I regularly attend Church and we have many people (even entire families) who either join after a long period of being away or leave the faith all together. We miss them of course but no one sends them death treats. Additionally, many people move between denominations. Perhaps you are confusing those with real cults such as: Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Seventh-day Adventism ? I can't however speak for how they operate as I haven't studied them or been involved.

rsynnott 4y ago
The Catholic Church in a number of European countries stopped processing requests to formally deregister people, due to mass departures after the sexual abuse revelations, which may be what they're referring to. For instance, https://www.notme.ie https://www.notme.ie
- olddustytrail 4y ago
  Did the Catholic church in Ireland have a register of people who were Catholic? Which other countries have this? I've just never heard of such a thing.
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    Generally record-keeping would be on a parish level, but yes, it's normal for Catholic parishes to keep records on this.
    - olddustytrail 4y ago
      Are you referring to a record of Christenings? Like every church everywhere would keep?