11 ms·

Surely that's not true? Islam for example is a religion, that you can not leave.

by godmode2019 4y ago

selimthegrim 4y ago
<citation needed>
- bowsamic 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam > As of 2014, there were eight Muslim-majority countries where apostasy from Islam was punishable by death,[17][18][19] and another thirteen where there were penal or civil penalties such as jail, fines or loss of child custody.
- renox 4y ago
  Seriously? OK https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
- rndgermandude 4y ago
  Overview and some good further references to primary sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam >As of 2014, there were eight Muslim-majority countries where apostasy from Islam was punishable by death, and another thirteen where there were penal or civil penalties such as jail, fines or loss of child custody. I'd say at least in those eight death penalty countries, you practically are not allowed to leave. And if the state letting you live but is taking away your children from you, you'll too think twice about leaving, too... In some regions, while apostasy is not official punished by law, people will still punish it extra-legally e.g. by committing "honor killings". Of course, this does not reflect all of Islam/all Muslims, and what people think about how apostates should be dealt with varies a lot regionally. If it even is legally (under religious laws) possible to leave the religion is a contested issue between theological scholars, however the bulk of theological scholars seem to consider it an absolute crime against God, but may disagree on whether it's up to people to punish the crime, or punishment be left to God. But even in Western countries there can be significant support within Muslim communities to harshly punish apostates. > A similar survey of the Muslim population in the United Kingdom, in 2007, found nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-old faithful believed that Muslims who convert to another religion should be executed, while less than a fifth of those over 55 believed the same. [0] That said, other religions, including an in particular Christianity, historically haven't been nice to apostates, either. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jan/29/thinktanks.religion https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jan/29/thinktanks.religi...
froh 4y ago
That's a problem where it's true...
incompatible 4y ago
I've heard that the Catholic Church considers baptism into the church to be for life, and can make it quite difficult for anybody to remove themselves from official registers. I don't know if there are any equivalent registers in Islam that you'd have trouble deregistering from. Obviously, there are plenty of people around who consider themselves ex-Muslims or ex-Catholics, regardless of any such considerations. Likewise, for so-called cults, so I'm not convinced it's really a point of difference.
- otikik 4y ago
  There’s a procedure (apostasy). That doesn’t mean they make it easy or that all the small village priests are even aware that it exists.
  - trasz 4y ago
    According to Church themselves, apostasy does not make one leave the Church.
    - anon291 4y ago
      The tests the courts use is whether you can actually physically leave control of the organization. Having your name written down or having a spiritual belief that some ritual is permanent, etc, doesn't count as not being able to leave. Are you asking the court to make a judgement on theological matters (i.e., the state of your soul)? Surely you can see why they don't care.
      - incompatible 4y ago
        Not being able to physically leave would be kidnapping, surely? That would make them a criminal organization, not just a "cult".
        anon291 4y ago
        Cults are often criminal. The Catholic church doesn't harrass you for money or really reach out at all if you're on its roster. All it is is a record of your having come there, which is their record to keep. This is like saying elementary schools are cuts because they keep your transcripts on file -- a completely ridiculous assertion.
phs318u 4y ago
> Islam for example is a religion, that you can not leave. I personally don't know what Islamic teaching says on the matter, but there seems to be a reasonable number of "ex-Muslim" organisations around the world, the existence of which makes an empirical case that, for practical purposes, you can indeed leave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ex-Muslim_organisations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ex-Muslim_organisation...
woodruffw 4y ago
This is a conversation about US courts and religions as they're practiced in the US. To the best of my knowledge, apostasy in Islam in the US is no particularly worse than apostasy in Mormonism on the scale of denomination.

Surely that's not true? Islam for example is a religion, that you can not leave.

selimthegrim 4y ago

bowsamic 4y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam > As of 2014, there were eight Muslim-majority countries where apostasy from Islam was punishable by death,[17][18][19] and another thirteen where there were penal or civil penalties such as jail, fines or loss of child custody.
renox 4y ago
Seriously? OK https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
rndgermandude 4y ago
Overview and some good further references to primary sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam >As of 2014, there were eight Muslim-majority countries where apostasy from Islam was punishable by death, and another thirteen where there were penal or civil penalties such as jail, fines or loss of child custody. I'd say at least in those eight death penalty countries, you practically are not allowed to leave. And if the state letting you live but is taking away your children from you, you'll too think twice about leaving, too... In some regions, while apostasy is not official punished by law, people will still punish it extra-legally e.g. by committing "honor killings". Of course, this does not reflect all of Islam/all Muslims, and what people think about how apostates should be dealt with varies a lot regionally. If it even is legally (under religious laws) possible to leave the religion is a contested issue between theological scholars, however the bulk of theological scholars seem to consider it an absolute crime against God, but may disagree on whether it's up to people to punish the crime, or punishment be left to God. But even in Western countries there can be significant support within Muslim communities to harshly punish apostates. > A similar survey of the Muslim population in the United Kingdom, in 2007, found nearly a third of 16 to 24-year-old faithful believed that Muslims who convert to another religion should be executed, while less than a fifth of those over 55 believed the same. [0] That said, other religions, including an in particular Christianity, historically haven't been nice to apostates, either. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jan/29/thinktanks.religion https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/jan/29/thinktanks.religi...

froh 4y ago

That's a problem where it's true...

incompatible 4y ago

I've heard that the Catholic Church considers baptism into the church to be for life, and can make it quite difficult for anybody to remove themselves from official registers. I don't know if there are any equivalent registers in Islam that you'd have trouble deregistering from. Obviously, there are plenty of people around who consider themselves ex-Muslims or ex-Catholics, regardless of any such considerations. Likewise, for so-called cults, so I'm not convinced it's really a point of difference.

otikik 4y ago
There’s a procedure (apostasy). That doesn’t mean they make it easy or that all the small village priests are even aware that it exists.
- trasz 4y ago
  According to Church themselves, apostasy does not make one leave the Church.
  - anon291 4y ago
    The tests the courts use is whether you can actually physically leave control of the organization. Having your name written down or having a spiritual belief that some ritual is permanent, etc, doesn't count as not being able to leave. Are you asking the court to make a judgement on theological matters (i.e., the state of your soul)? Surely you can see why they don't care.
    - incompatible 4y ago
      Not being able to physically leave would be kidnapping, surely? That would make them a criminal organization, not just a "cult".
      - anon291 4y ago
        Cults are often criminal. The Catholic church doesn't harrass you for money or really reach out at all if you're on its roster. All it is is a record of your having come there, which is their record to keep. This is like saying elementary schools are cuts because they keep your transcripts on file -- a completely ridiculous assertion.

phs318u 4y ago

> Islam for example is a religion, that you can not leave. I personally don't know what Islamic teaching says on the matter, but there seems to be a reasonable number of "ex-Muslim" organisations around the world, the existence of which makes an empirical case that, for practical purposes, you can indeed leave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ex-Muslim_organisations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ex-Muslim_organisation...

woodruffw 4y ago

This is a conversation about US courts and religions as they're practiced in the US. To the best of my knowledge, apostasy in Islam in the US is no particularly worse than apostasy in Mormonism on the scale of denomination.